Xxxx (first)
Alan (first)
xxxx further
Alan Further.

Xxxx > Dearest Alan
> Xxxx > Boy this really gets to you doesnt it? Chill man

> Alan > No Xxxx, on the contrary, your 5 e-mails to date
> on the subject of Trinity Academy strongly suggest
> that it is actually getting to you. Chill Man.

Xxxx further > Yes I am getting I to this arent I , I love an argument but its not my obsession

Alan further > Rubbish. I now have 7 e-mails in my inbox from you on the subject of TA, Thorne, in which you keep going over the same points. And if that wasn’t bad enough you are starting to get abusive. If you cannot respond to my replies with rational arguments then simply stop e-mailing me, don’t start calling me stupid names & making snide remarks about my mental state.

> Xxxx > Where is all this hate from?
> Alan >As an old hand in debating creationists, I hope
> you don’t mind if I point out that you should have
> added dogmatic, anti-Christian & intolerant to the
> above ad-hominem. Look, like this:

Xxxx further > It takes all sorts - you've got to learn to live and let live

Alan further > In that case the ESF should be made to return the schools they own to state control. That is the only way we can be 100% sure the children under their control are not exposed to creationist indoctrination.

Xxxx further > Arent schools supposed to have worship and RE by law- do you want to get rid of that?

Alan further > Why, do you have a view on the subject that you wish to share?

Alan further > Perhaps you would care to explain why that in a country where the vast majority of people seem to show not the slightest interest in religion, why it is that the children of this growing army of atheists, agnostics & the plain disinterested are forced to mumble to a God that they don’t believe in?

Alan further > You can be sure that whenever the subject of abolishing faith schools comes up, one of their supporters will bitterly complain that it is their right to have their children brought up according to their beliefs. They will even quote the human rights act. Yet the parents of the increasingly large group mentioned above are simply forced to put with having someone else’s religious views rammed down their children’s throats, day after day, week after week, year after year. They are treated like second class citizens in their own country.

Alan further > There is no excuse for allowing this idiotic situation to continue & I predict that it is only a matter of time now before this discrimination is stopped.

> Alan > (pretending to be Xxxx) > “Why are you so
> hateful, dogmatic, anti-Christian & intolerant”?
>
> Alan > Remember, the next time you get stuck in an
> argument with an anti-creationist, send them across to
> me. I will sort them out for you!

Xxxx further > I dont understand this Alan - dont you mean "with a creationist?'What does sort them out mean?

Alan further > What it means Xxxx is that your puerile insults are the sort of thing that creationists come out with all the time. Unfortunately for you however, they are so bad that I am indicating I could argue your position for you better than you can yourself.

> Xxxx > Is something else going on with you, I mean like
> personally?
>
> Alan > Ad-hominem psycho-babble; good, I see you learn
> fast.

Xxxx further > Clearly you're a balanced tolerant guy
Sorry

>
> Xxxx > You seem almost obsessive.
>
> Alan > But not half as obsessive as the creationists
> who are taking over our schools, or the creationist
> organisation with the deliberately misleading name,
> Truth In Science, who bombard schools with
> anti-intellectual creationist propaganda.

Xxxx further >True, but they are taking the responsibility and doing something to turn around failing schools

Alan further > The responsibility for turning around failing schools (assuming they were failing to start with) should be placed in the hands of a dedicated management team, that would assess the situation & implement any remedial action. They can manage to do this sort of thing in industry when there are problems, so there is no theoretical reason why they cannot do it in schools as well.

Xxxx further > You are just criticising - why dont you find a sponsor who thinks as you do and set up your Academy to show how its done?

Alan further > Because I don’t believe it is a good idea to shatter the state educational system into a myriad of different political & religious factions competing against each other for control. It is inefficient, socially divisive & totally unnecessary.

> Xxxx > I just think they seem to know what they are
> doing

> Alan >Yep, they sure do!

Xxxx further > Ah sarcasm, you know I meant they know professionally!

Alan further > Yet again you have come back to this point without explaining what you mean. Are you saying that the teachers in an ESF school are better trained than those found elsewhere? Are they more qualified or more dedicated or what? Don’t they employ qualified & dedicated staff in other schools? And if it transpired that there was a problem identified with the quality of the teaching, is there some law of nature that says it can only be improved in a school run by the ESF? Why is this elusive & exclusive professionalism available only to the ESF & nobody else?

> Xxxx > I'm not saying its a religious thing, maybe
> they are just more professional that the professionals
> you are talking about. Perhaps that's why they take on
> bad behaviour?
>
> Alan > It’s only a school, not a nuclear power
> station. They’re the same students (in terms of
> ability – or so we are told), the same books, the same
> teachers, teaching the same subjects to the same
> curriculum, in roughly the same buildings in the same
> country. Surely it is not beyond the realms of
> possibility for same high standards to be applied
> universally?

Xxxx further > Disagree if they rose from 16th/17 to 6th/17 schools in Doncaster,
then 11 schools with "the same students (in terms of
> ability – or so we are told), the same books, the same
> teachers, teaching the same subjects to the same
> curriculum, in roughly the same buildings in the same
> country." are finding it beyond the realms of possibility .

Alan further > There you go again with your crappy statistics. Do I really have to go over this again & point out that TA academy ended up where it was last year under the management of the ESF? And again, the true performance averaged over the 2 years of its lifetime is 11/17 – viewed from that perspective it has yet to reach average.

Alan further > Furthermore, last year when TA did so badly, they blamed it on a bad intake, what are you saying, that there are no other factors at play in this other than the ESF’s mysterious, “professionalism” that no one else is allowed to have? Or are they (and you) actually wilfully & dishonestly demeaning the achievements & hard work of all these other schools in order to bludgeon home an ideology?

Alan further > Incidentally, wasn’t all the hype surrounding the takeover of Thorne Grammar based on the performance of Emmanuel College, Gateshead where they were achieving 98% A –C pass rates. Why then aren’t TA’s figures up to that standard now & why are they not at the top of the Doncaster league? You keep going on & on about how fantastic they are, so why are they not at the top – why are they only sixth? Or was the ESF & Doncaster Borough Council simply misleading everyone when they were banding these figures about?

Xxxx further > Now there's the thing you need to explain to me , they are trying but why are they not succeedin? and what is your solution thatwill make a difference now? and how will you do it?

Alan further > Yet again I have previously explained this to you. You first carry out market research to identify what the problem is & then you employ trained professional educational staff to implement remedial action. This may require spending money on refurbishing or replacing substandard buildings & equipment, it may also require investment in staff & so on.

Alan further > But finally, it doesn’t really matter if I can or cannot think of an alternative solution, because that isn’t what’s causing the all the controversy. That is being caused by allowing creationists to run state schools. My solution or lack of it is totally irrelevant to that fact.

Alan further > And as I have explained before, something that is so self-evidently wrong is not made right by constantly harping on about how good the exam results are (in your opinion).

Alan further > And my original point still stands. If you were talking about a factory where they made some product; then by uniformly duplicating the same procedures & processes, products of a uniform standard can be produced anywhere without introducing some mumbo-jumbo, undefined facture X that only the ESF have access to. But if you think it exists then the onus is on you to explain what it is. Care to have a go?

> Xxxx > Anyway I'm not into evangelical fervour like
> you.
>
> Alan > Sigh; that should have been, “fundamentalist
> fervour” 5/10 (& try & get something about Stalin in
> next time).

Xxxx further > What has Stlain got to do with this?

Alan further > Well creationists always go on about Stalin and you are starting to babble like a creationist.

> Xxxx > Just waht seems to work
>
> Xxxx > Kids only have one chance
>
> Alan > That’s no excuse for allowing impressionable
> children to be exposed to creationist nonsense.

Xxxx further > Do you know much about kids?, I've got three and they are as street wise as they come ,

Alan further > As a parent, yes I do know a lot about kids, for a start they are all to varying degrees impressionable & capable of being influenced by the information given to them by adults in authority such as teachers. The state has an absolute & unconditional responsibility to ensure that this fact is not misused by religious extremists attempting to force THEIR absurd views onto other people’s children.

Xxxx further > you make it sound like Communist China-

Alan further > No I don’t. My point was perfectly clear; what has communist China got to do with anything?

Xxxx further > But some parents have objected to disciple in the papers
They have it in for the Academy and I'm sure they would love
embarras them BUT no one has ever said
they are pushing creationism- so where is your
evidence that Trinity Academy pushes
creationism- I challenge you
to put up or shut up.

Alan further > We’ve already been over this before; why do you keep making me repeat myself? For the very last time, the organisation running TA, the ESF has made it abundantly that they want to push their extreme fundamentalist religious beliefs onto other people’s children. They have repeatedly condemned themselves out of their own mouths. If they do not want people to report their comments, THEN PERHAPS THEY SHOULD STOP MAKING THEM.

Alan further > With regard to TA, could you please point out where I have said on the site that, “that Trinity Academy pushes creationism”, quoting the precise passage. Oh & whist you are about it try answering some of the other questions I have asked you as well. - I challenge you to put up or shut up.

Alan further > If you are so absolutely sure that they don’t teach creationism in these schools, perhaps you could point me to reports highlighting the fact that members of the ESF have recanted their previously held extreme views. Can you do that?

Alan further > If they ESF have no interest in teaching creationism in their schools, then perhaps you could explain why it is that the principal of TA is described in one article in the Times Educational Supplement as a creationist. You seem pretty handy with numbers, how about pointing out the odds of that just happening by accident? He has also made a statement supporting teaching creationism in schools, which is pretty bloody weird if that is not what his intention of doing is.

Alan further > Moreover, we have already determined that the ESF’s other schools are pushing hell-fire abuse & encouraging discrimination against homosexuals; typical disgusting creationist behaviour. I think it is fairly safe to say that if they are doing these things in the other schools then presumably they are also doing them in TA as well.

Alan further > I don’t think many people would be happy that TA were teaching such harmful nonsense to their children, & if the local papers haven’t reported on this situation, THEN SHAME ON THEM.

Alan further > Do you agree with creationism? If not, why are you supporting the ESF?

> Xxxx > Up load away, I'll sign off for now
>
> Xxxx > With greatest respects
>
> Xxxx > Xxxx
>
> Alan >Best Wishes,
>
> Alan >Alan

Xxxx further > I see you have me as Trinity critic. I did'nt really know what I was
till this started but I dont think I'm a Trinity critic. You'll need to find a new
phrase, how about Trinity debate?

Alan further > Good point, changed to Reply to Critic

Xxxx further > Oh Yes I read in the press that Northcliffe hit 16% this year, - down 6% since last year
I read your stuff on Northcliffe, everyone seems quite pleased to
have fought off an Academy , and a nutty one at that . There is a site you advertise called CADPAG
where they say they will support the pupils ,parents and staff of Trinity Academy.
Looks like its Northcliffe need the support >

Alan further > Why don’t you take it up with them. Oh I see from my inbox that you already have. What a nice well balanced person you are. But off the top of my head, perhaps they had a bad intake this year. After all, if the ESF can have a bad intake & slip to the bottom of the tables, then I am sure they can as well.

Alan further > I think this private discussion has now run its course. Should you wish to reply to anything I have written here then go across to:

http://community.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php

Alan further > Register & post in the free for all section. I will point the website to it.

Alan further > Here’s your opportunity to publicly defend your views.

Alan further > See you there.