901
Lenny Flank
Re: Maybe Nick''s right
29/05/2006 01:07:00
>
> Lenny, you're a bright bloke - a scientist and I assume a theist of
> some kind.
>
Nope, I am a Buddhist/Taoist. No gods needed or necessary.
> How is similarly bright people (OK, usually not biologists) believe in
> the six-day creation, 6000-odd years ago?
>
Because people tend to believe what they *want* to believe.
The same reason why over half the people in the US think that WMD's
were actually found in Iraq.
That is not a weakness that is exclusive to religious people.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
902
Lenny Flank
Re: Maybe Nick''s right
29/05/2006 01:12:00
> >
> > Lenny, you're a bright bloke - a scientist
Oh, and the only formal science I had was 25 years ago in high
school.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
903
Lenny Flank
Re: Re: Maybe Nick''s right - let him speak!
29/05/2006 01:10:00
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
> wrote: > > Sorry, I forgot to add, let them justify their position.
> The onus is > on them to justify their nonsense, not the other way
> round. >
Steady on folks, you're all answering my (implied) question:
> what does Nick make of the idea of putting up creationism as a straw
> man? Give the lad a chance!
Alas, it seems as if Nick has suddenly found other things to do.
Like all fundies, he was only here to preach and run. And like all
fundies, he's lethally allergic to answering direct questions.
(shrug)
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
904
Andrew
Re: Re: Maybe Nick''s right - let him speak!
29/05/2006 01:30:00
----- Original Message -----
From: Lenny Flank
> Alas, it seems as if Nick has suddenly found other things to do.
> Like all fundies, he was only here to preach and run. And like all
> fundies, he's lethally allergic to answering direct questions. (shrug)
He said toward the end of his last message that he'd be away until Thursday.
So to be fair he hasn't just ducked and run. Of course whether he'll ever
answer any direct questions is anybody's guess, though.
905
oeditor
Re: Maybe Nick''s right
29/05/2006 01:44:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...> wrote:
>
>
> Nope, I am a Buddhist/Taoist. No gods needed or necessary.
>
A bit off-topic, but I went to Buddhist meditation classes when my
blood pressure was on the boil. Fine, until they suddenly started on
about a god's saving the teacher's mother's life by averting a car
crash. If that wasn't bad enough, they sold me a book which turned out
to be equally supernaturally inclined. Nice, sincere people, but maybe
deluded? DOES buddhism have gods? Is it just the unfortunate peasants
who think so? Are they any different from the poor sods who were
robbed to build Europe's cathedrals?
It would be a bit of a bugger, wouldn't it, being robbed blind to
build an edifice to gods that the builders knew didn't exist? (oops,
I'm forgetting - it happens all the time, doesn't it?)
Glory be to Bacchus,
Glug
Brian
(who didn't mean to be facetious, it was a serious question about
Buddhism)
906
Timothy Chase
Re: Math-based question for Noahphiles
29/05/2006 01:44:00
On 28/05/06, Lenny Flank <lflank@ij.net> wrote:
>
> > I can't recall how many kids Noah had (and forgetting the icky incest
> > question) - how long did Noah and his tribe have to create today's
> > population and could he have do it?...
> I deal with this on my website:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/lflank/populate.htm
>
One really neat piece you wrote before pertained to the polymorphisms
existing at various loci. It was a real reductio ad absurdum of the
the Noachian flood -- based upon the abundance of alleles which exist
within the human population and the ungodly rate of mutation which one
would have to assume to line things up with young earth creationists'
beliefs.
Here is the link:
From: "Lenny Flank"
Date: Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] Question
http://snipurl.com/r27q
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation/message/88883
I wouldn't mind seeing this added to your website.
907
John Germain
RE: Re: Maybe Nick''s right - let him speak!
29/05/2006 01:55:00
He re-appeared on Friday..
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: 29 May 2006 01:30
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re: Maybe Nick's right - let him speak!
----- Original Message -----
From: Lenny Flank
> Alas, it seems as if Nick has suddenly found other things to do.
> Like all fundies, he was only here to preach and run. And like all
> fundies, he's lethally allergic to answering direct questions. (shrug)
He said toward the end of his last message that he'd be away until Thursday.
So to be fair he hasn't just ducked and run. Of course whether he'll ever
answer any direct questions is anybody's guess, though.
Yahoo! Groups Links
908
Andrew
Re: Re: Maybe Nick''s right
29/05/2006 02:32:00
----- Original Message -----
From: oeditor
> DOES buddhism have gods? Is it just the unfortunate peasants
who think so?
It depends on the type of Buddhism. The early Buddhist texts do refer to
gods, devas and so on, and the teachings are very much in the context of the
situation and beliefs in northern India at the time. The gods are thought
of as inhabiting the samsaric round of conditioned sufferings that Buddha
transcended, though, so they're part of the cycle and in effect inferior to
enlightened beings. As an example, one of the Suttas of the Pali Canon has
Buddha describe how the universe goes through cycles of creation and
destruction. The first being to re-inhabit the newly re-constituted
universe is thought to have created it and is the Brahma of that age.
With the belief in rebirth there's scope to become a deity or to migrate
back into some other form - human, animal or whatever - from having been
one.
Popular eastern Theravada Buddhism tends to emphasise these aspects more
than Theravada in the west. With Tibetan Buddhism it depends on the
tradition how much supernatural beings are considered to exist or considered
relevant. Ch'an (Chinese) and Zen (the Japanese development of the latter,
broadly speaking) vary as well, from referring to deities to strongly
discouraging such matters from discussion.
It's very important to distinguish between deities on the one hand, and
enlightened beings supposed to have supernatural powers on the other. The
rescuing power of Tara in Tibetan Buddhism, for example, is very different
from the activies of a samsaric god, because Tara is considered to be an
enlightened Bodhisattva who has transcended birth and death, whereas a deity
may easily still be caught up in the cycle of samsara.
Modern Christianity in India makes use of the image of transcending the
round of birth and death as well, for example by picturing Jesus on the
cross piercing the boundary of fire that's usually depicted surrounding the
dancing form of Shiva.
909
Lenny Flank
Re: Re: Maybe Nick''s right
29/05/2006 04:55:00
>DOES buddhism have gods?
Yes and no.
There are various "spirits" or "gods" sometimes depicted in Buddhism,
but these are understood to be nothing more than symbolic
representations of various aspects of reality. They are not intended
as actual supernatural entities.
Alas, people who don't understand the essence of Buddhism but who do
like its rituals, often take them as such. They are missing the
whole point.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
910
Lenny Flank
Re: Math-based question for Noahphiles
29/05/2006 04:57:00
>
> I wouldn't mind seeing this added to your website.
>
>
I think it's already there, somewhere.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
911
Peter Hearty
Re: Re: Maybe Nick''s right - let him speak!
29/05/2006 08:14:00
> Alas, it seems as if Nick has suddenly found other things to do.
>
> Like all fundies, he was only here to preach and run. And like all
> fundies, he's lethally allergic to answering direct questions.
> (shrug)
To be fair, it's a holiday weekend here in the UK and he did warn us he'd be
gone for a while. Let's wait and see.
912
Marc Draco
Re: Maybe Nick''s right
29/05/2006 12:09:00
Lenny Flank wrote:
> >
> > Lenny, you're a bright bloke - a scientist and I assume a theist of
> > some kind.
> >
>
> Nope, I am a Buddhist/Taoist. No gods needed or necessary.
>
Really? I'll have to look that up. Sounds interesting.
>
>
> > How is similarly bright people (OK, usually not biologists) believe in
> > the six-day creation, 6000-odd years ago?
> >
>
> Because people tend to believe what they *want* to believe.
>
> The same reason why over half the people in the US think that WMD's
> were actually found in Iraq.
>
> That is not a weakness that is exclusive to religious people.
I read a piece yesterday in on of our less respected papers that
gullibility is an advantage to natural selection. I can't decide if the
psychologists were being ironic or not.
913
Marc Draco
Re: Math-based question for Noahphiles
29/05/2006 12:15:00
Timothy Chase wrote:
> On 28/05/06, Lenny Flank <lflank@ij.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I can't recall how many kids Noah had (and forgetting the icky incest
> > > question) - how long did Noah and his tribe have to create today's
> > > population and could he have do it?...
>
> > I deal with this on my website:
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/lflank/populate.htm
> >
>
> One really neat piece you wrote before pertained to the polymorphisms
> existing at various loci. It was a real reductio ad absurdum of the
> the Noachian flood -- based upon the abundance of alleles which exist
> within the human population and the ungodly rate of mutation which one
> would have to assume to line things up with young earth creationists'
> beliefs.
Lenny, do I have your permission to add that to my website - with full
acknowledgment as to copyright and authorship?
914
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: Maybe Nick''s right - let him speak!
29/05/2006 14:21:00
Now now - it's half term holiday here in the UK, most of the schools (Blue
Coats included) have a weeks holiday.
Let's wait and see whether Mr Cowan comes back refreshed from his break and
ready to see some sense!
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Lenny Flank
Sent: 29 May 2006 01:10
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re: Maybe Nick's right - let him speak!
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
> wrote: > > Sorry, I forgot to add, let them justify their position.
> The onus is > on them to justify their nonsense, not the other way
> round. >
Steady on folks, you're all answering my (implied) question:
> what does Nick make of the idea of putting up creationism as a straw
> man? Give the lad a chance!
Alas, it seems as if Nick has suddenly found other things to do.
Like all fundies, he was only here to preach and run. And like all
fundies, he's lethally allergic to answering direct questions.
(shrug)
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get
to your groups with one click. Know instantly when new email arrives
http://us.click.yahoo.com/.7bhrC/MGxNAA/yQLSAA/33wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Yahoo! Groups Links
915
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Maybe Nick''s right - let him speak!
29/05/2006 14:51:00
Ian Lowe wrote:
> Let's wait and see whether Mr Cowan comes back refreshed from his break and
> ready to see some sense!
With all the rain here, maybe he can identify the Flood level finally...?
916
Rudy Vonk
Re: Re: repeating my questions for Mr Cowan
29/05/2006 17:00:00
On 27 may 2006, at 01:16, Lenny Flank wrote:
> See, according to the creationists, all humans alive today are
> descended from 8 people who got off a Really Big Boat.
Lenny, I know that this is from one of your standard responses as you
yourself point out, but it is always good to read it all again. Perhaps
a good title for a "History of Pathological Creationism" would be:
"From Big Boat to Big Tent"?
917
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: repeating my questions for Mr Cowan
29/05/2006 17:12:00
Rudy Vonk wrote:
> Lenny, I know that this is from one of your standard responses as you
> yourself point out, but it is always good to read it all again. Perhaps
> a good title for a "History of Pathological Creationism" would be:
> "From Big Boat to Big Tent"?
Pathological: One of a Kind ;-)
918
Rudy Vonk
Re: Re: repeating my questions for Mr Cowan
29/05/2006 17:44:00
On 29 may 2006, at 18:12, Mikey Brass wrote:
> Pathological: One of a Kind ;-)
OT: Can somebody remind me of the name of the Woody Allen movie in
which he held a hand of "five semi-pairs" in a game of poker?
919
Lenny Flank
Re: Math-based question for Noahphiles
30/05/2006 00:26:00
> Lenny, do I have your permission to add that to my website - with full
> acknowledgment as to copyright and authorship?
>
Feel free.
All the stuff on my website is freely usable for anything other than
commercial purposes.
Information is a weapon, and I want everyone to be well-armed.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
920
Roger Stanyard
Letter from Australia
30/05/2006 12:01:00
I came across the following letter over the weekend :-)
From the Australian Museum of Natural History,
Sydney, Australia.
Mr Laurie Appleton,
Ward 7, Block 5
Princess Mary Psychiatric Hospital
Brisbane
Queensland
Australia
Dear Mr Appleton,
We thank you for forwarding to us the objects labelled, "Fresh
dinosaur bones". We read with great interest your long treatise
entitled "Dinosaurs only extinct since last week".
We agree with some of your conclusions, but take issue with others.
For instance, we accept your dating method. Since the object was
shrink-wrapped in a tamper-proof plastic package bearing the
trademark of a registered abattoir, we regard the documentation
attached as reliable, including the statement, "Best before 12.12.06".
However, we were disturbed that the rest of this label appears to
have been deliberately snipped. Fortunately, we were able, using
identification that appears as, "Batch Number Q56465" to obtain a
certified copy of the said document from the authors, The Queensland
and Northern Territory Wholesale Meat Company, and discovered that
the part that had been tampered with contained the words "Shoulder of
Lamb".
Naturally, we ascribe the same reliability to this description as we
do to the part showing the date that was still intact on the specimen
you sent us. The authors have indicated that they are prepared to
swear an affidavit that they did package the specimen in the shrink-
wrap plastic, and that it is part of the remains of a known species
of sheep. They assure us they have never had in their possession any
dinosaur bones, flesh, or tissue of any description. They deny
absolutely that they killed the last dinosaur and cut it up for sale
to the retail supermarket industry.
Examination of the remains by biologists here, by consulting
veterinarians, and by certified State and Federal meat inspectors has
confirmed that they are in fact from a sheep.
We understand your unquenchable thirst for scientific advance, as we
indicated in previous letters when you sent us a jar of material
which you believed was Manna as described in the Book of Genesis of
the Old Testament. We accept that mistaking Kraft peanut butter for
manna was a natural mistake that anyone could make. The experiment
you asked us to conduct is still running, and no, the peanut butter
has not metamorphosed into crude oil. Also, we are still reluctant to
accede to your request that we recommend the expunging from school
textbooks assertions that hydrocarbons and carbohydrates are not the
same thing.
We cannot accept your assertion that anyone who disagrees with you
is "an evolution brainwashee", and your references to Stalin and
Hitler as being of the same ilk has us puzzling. We have no expertise
in European political history, so we have forwarded it to the
University of New South Wales History Department for their comment.
We would have expected a reply from them by now, but they report that
they in turn are still awaiting comment from the Princess Mary
Psychiatric Hospital, Brisbane, which is where they sent your letter
to.
We would welcome further submissions of this nature, but next time
please also include 10Kg of beef sausages as we are about to have a
barbecue.
Yours
921
Mikey Brass
Re: Letter from Australia
30/05/2006 12:20:00
Good satire, eh. It has been floating round the Net for a number of years.
922
ukantic
Creationists Needed
30/05/2006 14:56:00
Well, when I started this forum, I swore blind I wasn't going to let
in any creationists. However, I made an exception for Nick & the
membership has gone up considerably. The problem now is that if I
don't keep the new members supplied with fresh meat they are all
liable to become bored & leave again.
Besides, Nick is now hopelessly outnumbered & it is only fair that
this imbalance is redressed.
Therefore, if you know anyone who would be willing to help you out
Nick, then you should ask them to sign up.
Alan.
923
ukantic
Creationists wanted
30/05/2006 15:10:00
Wanted for forum
Young Earth Creationists wanted for an up & coming anticreationism
forum based in the UK. Preference will be given to Young Earthers
but Old Earthers & IDers will also be considered.
You should be between 15 & 95, conversant with Gish Gallop & possess
a well-developed persecution complex. Rhetorical skills, an ability
to remain unfazed by seemingly unanswerable questions (e.g. "how did
the oak trees outrun the dinosaurs?") & the ability to regurgitate
previously debunked arguments would be an advantage.
Familiarity with tenets of creationism such as, "evolution is a
faith position", "critical thinking" & "teach the controversy"
preferred but further training could be given.
If you think you have the ability to survive in the cut & thrust of
a modern anticreationism forum then follow the joining instructions
above.
Raelians, scientologists etc need not apply.
Let's see what that produces.
Alan.
924
Peter Hearty
Re: Creationists Needed
30/05/2006 16:08:00
ukantic wrote:
> Well, when I started this forum, I swore blind I wasn't going to let
> in any creationists. However, I made an exception for Nick & the
> membership has gone up considerably. The problem now is that if I
> don't keep the new members supplied with fresh meat they are all
> liable to become bored & leave again.
>
> Besides, Nick is now hopelessly outnumbered & it is only fair that
> this imbalance is redressed.
>
> Therefore, if you know anyone who would be willing to help you out
> Nick, then you should ask them to sign up.
>
> Alan.
>
I'm sure Nick has many friends who could join in.
Pete
925
Mikey Brass
Re: Creationists wanted
30/05/2006 15:30:00
> Familiarity with tenets of creationism such as, "evolution is a
> faith position", "critical thinking" & "teach the controversy"
> preferred but further training could be given.
Any lack of knowledge in your own creationist tracts will be to your
disadvantage, but the evilotuonists can be relied upon to point you
quickly to the precise urls to rectify the situation.
926
Joe Cooper
Re: Letter from Australia
30/05/2006 15:30:00
Roger Stanyard wrote:
> I came across the following letter over the weekend :-)
>
> >From the Australian Museum of Natural History,
> Sydney, Australia.
>
> Mr Laurie Appleton,
> Ward 7, Block 5
> Princess Mary Psychiatric Hospital
> Brisbane
> Queensland
> Australia
>
> Dear Mr Appleton,
>
> We thank you for forwarding to us the objects labelled, "Fresh
> dinosaur bones". We read with great interest your long treatise
> entitled "Dinosaurs only extinct since last week".
>
> We agree with some of your conclusions, but take issue with others.
>
> For instance, we accept your dating method. Since the object was
> shrink-wrapped in a tamper-proof plastic package bearing the
> trademark of a registered abattoir, we regard the documentation
> attached as reliable, including the statement, "Best before 12.12.06".
>
> However, we were disturbed that the rest of this label appears to
> have been deliberately snipped. Fortunately, we were able, using
> identification that appears as, "Batch Number Q56465" to obtain a
> certified copy of the said document from the authors, The Queensland
> and Northern Territory Wholesale Meat Company, and discovered that
> the part that had been tampered with contained the words "Shoulder of
> Lamb".
>
> Naturally, we ascribe the same reliability to this description as we
> do to the part showing the date that was still intact on the specimen
> you sent us. The authors have indicated that they are prepared to
> swear an affidavit that they did package the specimen in the shrink-
> wrap plastic, and that it is part of the remains of a known species
> of sheep. They assure us they have never had in their possession any
> dinosaur bones, flesh, or tissue of any description. They deny
> absolutely that they killed the last dinosaur and cut it up for sale
> to the retail supermarket industry.
>
> Examination of the remains by biologists here, by consulting
> veterinarians, and by certified State and Federal meat inspectors has
> confirmed that they are in fact from a sheep.
>
> We understand your unquenchable thirst for scientific advance, as we
> indicated in previous letters when you sent us a jar of material
> which you believed was Manna as described in the Book of Genesis of
> the Old Testament. We accept that mistaking Kraft peanut butter for
> manna was a natural mistake that anyone could make. The experiment
> you asked us to conduct is still running, and no, the peanut butter
> has not metamorphosed into crude oil. Also, we are still reluctant to
> accede to your request that we recommend the expunging from school
> textbooks assertions that hydrocarbons and carbohydrates are not the
> same thing.
>
> We cannot accept your assertion that anyone who disagrees with you
> is "an evolution brainwashee", and your references to Stalin and
> Hitler as being of the same ilk has us puzzling. We have no expertise
> in European political history, so we have forwarded it to the
> University of New South Wales History Department for their comment.
> We would have expected a reply from them by now, but they report that
> they in turn are still awaiting comment from the Princess Mary
> Psychiatric Hospital, Brisbane, which is where they sent your letter
> to.
>
> We would welcome further submissions of this nature, but next time
> please also include 10Kg of beef sausages as we are about to have a
> barbecue.
>
> Yours
>
>
>
Why not a DNA test?
Joe Cooper
927
Joe Cooper
Re: Creationists Needed
30/05/2006 15:34:00
ukantic wrote:
> Well, when I started this forum, I swore blind I wasn't going to let
> in any creationists. However, I made an exception for Nick & the
> membership has gone up considerably. The problem now is that if I
> don't keep the new members supplied with fresh meat they are all
> liable to become bored & leave again.
>
> Besides, Nick is now hopelessly outnumbered & it is only fair that
> this imbalance is redressed.
>
> Therefore, if you know anyone who would be willing to help you out
> Nick, then you should ask them to sign up.
>
> Alan.
>
>
>
What happens when they become satiated?
Joe Cooper
928
Roger Stanyard
Re: Creationists wanted
30/05/2006 18:10:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <ukantic@...> wrote:
>
> Wanted for forum
>
> Young Earth Creationists wanted for an up & coming anticreationism
> forum based in the UK. Preference will be given to Young Earthers
> but Old Earthers & IDers will also be considered.
>
Hello Alan,
How about posting an "advert" in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/creation_evolution_debate
where you will find more than a handful of YECers, complete with
their opinions, regurgiquotes, waco theories about the Ark being
placed in orbit above the earth, gems like alleles are foreign
languages, anti-catholicisms, anti-Brit rhetoric and a whole host of
enlightening information?
You or someone else will need to put the advertisement in as I walked
out of the group after a week.
Roger
929
Lenny Flank
Re: Creationists Needed
31/05/2006
>
> Besides, Nick is now hopelessly outnumbered
Just as he is in real life.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
930
Roger Stanyard
Steve Jones Gives Up on Fundies
31/05/2006 10:43:00
This report was in yesterday's British national newspaper, the
Guardian. It's an up market liberal newspaper. Steve Jones, alongside
Richard Dawkins, is the best know British scientist defending the
Theory of Evolution against the fundies.
This report is very sad, indeed. It's indicative of the extent to
which the fundamentalists are increasing their grip in the UK and
using every lying, deceitful tactic they can.
James Randerson, science correspondent
Tuesday May 30, 2006
The Guardian
A leading British scientist said yesterday that he had given up
trying to persuade creationists that Darwin's theory is correct after
repeatedly being misrepresented and, he said, branded a liar.
Speaking at the Guardian Hay festival at Hay-on-Wye, the evolutionary
biologist Steve Jones spoke of his frustrations when trying to debate
with religious opponents.
"I don't engage with creationists directly," he said, saying that,
when he had, they had frequently quoted him out of context or accused
him of lying. "If somebody has decided to believe something -
whatever the evidence - then there is nothing you can do about it."
The University College London professor spoke to the provocative
title, Why Creationism is Wrong and Evolution is Right. He pointed
out that acceptance of Darwin's theory on a global scale was
a "minority belief". According to polls, 100 million Americans
believe in creationism.
His talk laid out some of the evidence for evolution, such as that of
changes in the HIV virus after infecting people. He also hinted at a
puzzle thrown up by the human genome project. Far from the hundreds
of thousands of genes many geneticists expected, there seem to be
around 30,000.
Another revelation was the notion that the chimpanzee genome project
has shown that women are closer to chimps then men. Prof Jones
explained that is because the X chromosome has changed less than the
Y chromosome since we split from a common ancestor with chimps. Women
have two X chromosomes compared with XY in men.
The most important difference between evolutionists and creationists,
Prof Jones concluded, is that scientists are always prepared to
say, "I don't know".
"If there weren't any unknown parts of evolution, bits we don't
understand, it wouldn't be a science," he said, "That's one thing
that believers never say, because it's all written down in a big
book."
In 1997, Prof Jones was awarded the Royal Society's Michael Faraday
prize, the UK's foremost award for communicating science to the
public.
931
ukantic
Parents rebel at Dickensian school run by millionaire evangelist
31/05/2006 11:58:00
Parents rebel at 'Dickensian' school run by millionaire evangelist
friend of Blair
Backlash over emphasis on religion as suspensions soar in 'covert'
selection
Matthew Taylor
Tuesday May 30, 2006
The Guardian
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/publicservices/story/0,,1785743,00.html
932
ukantic
Re: Creationists Needed
31/05/2006 12:01:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Joe Cooper <joe0727@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> ukantic wrote:
> > Well, when I started this forum, I swore blind I wasn't going to
let
> > in any creationists. However, I made an exception for Nick & the
> > membership has gone up considerably. The problem now is that if I
> > don't keep the new members supplied with fresh meat they are all
> > liable to become bored & leave again.
> >
> > Besides, Nick is now hopelessly outnumbered & it is only fair
that
> > this imbalance is redressed.
> >
> > Therefore, if you know anyone who would be willing to help you
out
> > Nick, then you should ask them to sign up.
> >
> > Alan.
> >
> >
> >
> What happens when they become satiated?
>
> Joe Cooper
>
Then we send them across to Lenny. I am sure he would appreciate
them, even if they are second hand.
Alan.
933
ukantic
Re: Creationists wanted
31/05/2006 12:08:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
wrote:
> Hello Alan,
>
> How about posting an "advert" in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/creation_evolution_debate
> where you will find more than a handful of YECers, complete with
> their opinions, regurgiquotes, waco theories about the Ark being
> placed in orbit above the earth, gems like alleles are foreign
> languages, anti-catholicisms, anti-Brit rhetoric and a whole host
of
> enlightening information?
>
> You or someone else will need to put the advertisement in as I
walked
> out of the group after a week.
>
> Roger
>
I have had a quick look Roger & I have just remembered why I decided
not to let in creationists in the first place. Do we really want the
likes of Kevi & his half-witted mates in here? Incidentally, is that
the forum that no longer has a moderator?
Alan.
934
Roger Stanyard
Re: Parents rebel at Dickensian school run by millionaire evangelist
31/05/2006 12:11:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <ukantic@...> wrote:
>
> Parents rebel at 'Dickensian' school run by millionaire evangelist
> friend of Blair
>
> Backlash over emphasis on religion as suspensions soar in 'covert'
> selection
>
> Matthew Taylor
> Tuesday May 30, 2006
> The Guardian
>
>
>
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/publicservices/story/0,,1785743,00.html
Well, McQuoid spells it out again:
The foundation says that all its lessons comply with the national
curriculum, and that creationism is taught in RE rather than science
lessons. But according to the head of the foundation, Nigel
McQuoid, "schools should teach the creation theory as literally
depicted in Genesis" because creation and evolution are "faith
positions".
In other words, he believes creationism should be taught in ALL
schools based on science being a faith position.
Rationality, reason and modernity, dear fellows, are straight out of
the window with this bloke.
And we have Vardy with a enough money in the bank to create another
seven of these schools.
The fundies are laughing at us. They put up £14m, we put up £280m.
Talk about manna from heaven.
Roger Stanyard
935
Andrew
Re: Parents rebel at Dickensian school run by millionaire evangelist
31/05/2006 12:17:00
----- Original Message -----
From: ukantic
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/publicservices/story/0,,1785743,00.html
What can one say except `scandalous, disgusting...'? I never thought we'd
see this cynical religious madness in Britain. It shows just what can
happen, given irresponsible and fanatical backing.
936
ukantic
Recent Compliment
31/05/2006 12:20:00
Just to prove that we are being noticed, here is an e-mail I
received recently complimenting me on the associated website, which
I am in the process of converting across to a wiki.
Personal details withheld at request of sender.
Dear Alan,
I have recently visited your excellent website which does a fine job
of countering the creationist non-science which is filtering its way
into Britain's schools. I am sure that this site will prove a
valuable source of information as the government continues its
obsession with allowing dubious faith groups to gain control of
schools. I was shocked to find from your site that creationism has
gained a foothold in my home city of Liverpool, with a chemistry
teacher at the Blue Coat School foisting religious bunkum down the
throats of pupils in science lessons.
However, I have some comments to be make on the limits of
creationism as a theory to back up religion. Firstly, creationism
does not prove that the universe was created by a single being. Two
or more beings may have collaborated on the act of creation.
Secondly, the theory of creation does not tell us anything about the
attributes of the being or beings that created the universe. They
do not necessarily have to have been uncreated, eternal, all-knowing
and all-powerful, as is claimed by the monotheistic religions.
Thirdly, it does not follow that the universe was created by a god.
It may have been created by aliens from another dimension or an
alternate universe. Creationism does not tell us what the creator
is doing now. He/she/they may be dead. Finally, it is not even
certain that the being or beings who created the universe is/are
male. It is females that are the author of life, so it stands to
reason that the creator of the universe is also female. In short,
creationism is not only bad science, it is also bad religion.
A current concern of mine is the recent news of proposals for a
fourth Vardy school in the town of Blyth, Northumberland.
Alarmingly, the feasibility of an all-through Academy catering for
pupils aged 4 to 18 is being looked at. The thought of such young
children being exposed to the Emmanuel Schools Foundation's
absolutist version of fundamentalist Christianity, not to mention
its rigid, authoritarian and inflexible disciplinary regime, fills
me with horror. This proposal must be fought every step of the
way. Just as an aside, did you know that the head of the Emmanuel
Schools Foundation, Mr Nigel McQuoid, supports the beating of
children? See www.christian.org.uk/html publications/roof.htm
Granted, this was written in 1997, but Mr McQuoid has not said
anything in the meantime to repudiate this view. These are the kind
of people that the Government believes are fit to run our schools.
Keep up the good work.
Yours sincerely,
M. M
UK
937
Andrew
Re: Re: Creationists wanted
31/05/2006 12:27:00
----- Original Message -----
From: ukantic
> Do we really want the
> likes of Kevi & his half-witted mates in here?
I think Debunk Creation handles this very effectively. Let them try to
prove they have real science to back them up, as they claim, and handle them
firmly if they try to preach or be stupid. Maybe we could extend that to
proper Biblical studies as well, as they repudiate much of the research done
over the last hundred years or so, but for that we'd really need one or two
specialists who are familar with the subject and with Hebrew and NT Greek.
Is it worth seeing if we can find a couple of people who fit that
description?
It's sometimes tiresome, but if we don't let them in the group's value is
limited. It's helpful to people observing this stuff if questions and
assertions have been responded to. If the current level of educational
irresponsibility continues it'll be helpful if parents have somewhere to go
to find these things dealt with.
Most of the time they come out with the same rubbish, or variants on themes.
With a bit of organisation it should be possible to provide standard links
and comments so as not to get bogged down with these people. And it's good
experience tackling this stuff and learning how not to get bogged down.
938
Roger Stanyard
Re: Creationists wanted
31/05/2006 13:41:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <ukantic@...> wrote:
>
>> I have had a quick look Roger & I have just remembered why I decided
> not to let in creationists in the first place. Do we really want the
> likes of Kevi & his half-witted mates in here? Incidentally, is that
> the forum that no longer has a moderator?
>
> Alan.
>
It does have a moderator and I got moderated several times during the
brief time I was in the group.
I think if you do invite them it, you need to kick them out the minute
that start using regurgiquotes (Applebottie's in there) or they start
preaching. That will quickly get rid of the hard core thickos.
The unmoderate group is the one with Flubber in it (I think its called
debunkevolution); you can tell because of the vast number of daily
postings from him (150 or so, spread over three sessions) that are all
repeats of what he has been posting for months.
Sad to say this is a 17-year old lad from Milwaukee who desperately
appears to need help. I dunno if he has fallen in with a dangerous sect
or whether he has a severe narcissistic personality disorder (or both,,
the latter created by the former). All you can do with flubber if he
turns up is to kick him off immediately. Otherwise he will wreck this
group.
I am easy going either way about letting them in. I just don't have a
strong opinion on it.
Roger
939
ukantic
Message From McQuoid
31/05/2006 14:19:00
Someone has just sent me this (personal details withheld):
You may be interested in the enclosed letter from the Mr Nigel
McQuoid, Director of Schools at the Emmanuel Schools Foundation,
which I received this morning (31 May 2006). This letter is sent as
an attachment to this email (EmmanuelLetter.doc) in Microsoft Word
2000 format. This polemic shows that the Vardy Foundation is still
as deluded as ever, and that the fight to remove religious nuttery
from the state education system is as urgent as it has ever been.
My concern is not with the fact that the Emmanuel Schools are
teaching creationist views (I see nothing wrong with telling pupils,
in RE lessons, what creationism is, making it clear that it is one
of many creation myths that exist worldwide). Rather, it is with
the fact that they are promoting these views as a valid account of
the origin of the earth, or even as the only true account of
creation. This is what must be stopped.
Dear Correspondent,
May I begin by apologising for not being able to respond more
personally to you as one of the huge number of people who have
written to one or other of us at The Emmanuel Schools Foundation in
the light of recent media coverage. The physical task of writing
individually would have meant many of you having to wait for even
longer than you have already!
Over the past eight weeks or so, both newspapers and TV have
transmitted much about our schools' view that children are entitled
to learn about the Biblical account of creation as well as to debate
its relative merits within religious, philosophical and scientific
contexts. Much of what has been said is untrue and over-
sensationalised but we stand by our general position and have been
overwhelmed by the vast majority of correspondents who have taken
time out to support and encourage us.
To those of you wrote in this vein, thank you. We already knew that
there are a large number of people who feel that our schools are
becoming places were Biblical truth claims are relegated to a place
alongside tooth fairies, if they appear at all. To have heard from
so many more of you has been a real boost. And if our stance has
encouraged you in return, then we are even more pleased that this
recent coverage has achieved that. Thank you also to those who have
sent articles, books and other materials which contribute to the
current debates; they are most appreciated and will be put to good
use, as appropriate.
Of course, there has been a handful of folk who have written in
critical mode, convinced that we are wrong to embrace a Christian
ethos within state education and/or claiming that matters of
Christian Faith should have no place in the teaching of science.
Others claim that the Bible's account of creation has no scientific
merit and are convinced of the absolute truth of evolution in its
widest sense. If you are one such person, whilst we accept that you
have the right to hold to such a point of view, we can assure you
that there are a great many who support or position in the proper
professional presentation of a wider range of views, including views
at odds with your own. Please note, in this regard, that we do
present our students with a wide cross-section of views across this
theme, including those of the atheist and of the theistic
evolutionist.
As a wider encouragement, both the King's Academy and Emmanuel
College have recently received their OfSTED Inspection Reports. For
the King's to be described as "a good school with many strong
features" and Emmanuel to receive its third "Outstanding" after
previous top ratings in 1996 and 2001 proves that the education on
offer within the Foundation is first-rate and remains hugely popular
with parents. In the mean time, rest assured that we shall continue
to seek to educate young people in a way which develops critical
thinking and respects personal choice. It is not our role
to `convert children' but we do take the proper opportunities to
introduce them to issues of spiritual and eternal importance
alongside their studies in Mathematics, History, Electronics and the
like. We trust that we will continue to enjoy the support of
OfSTED, DfES, and our parents in this work, and that even the few
correspondents who oppose what you believe we are doing, can come to
allow us to have our point of view expressed alongside your own.
Yours sincerely,
NJMcQuoid
Director of Schools
The Emmanuel Schools Foundation
940
Lenny Flank
Re: Parents rebel at Dickensian school run by millionaire evangelist
31/05/2006 13:30:00
> Parents rebel at 'Dickensian' school run by millionaire evangelist
> friend of Blair
>
> Backlash over emphasis on religion as suspensions soar in 'covert'
> selection
Good, I'm glad to see the parents objecting. The fundies are nothing
but paranoid authoritarian mind-control freaks. The parents are
finally recognizing that.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
941
Roger Stanyard
Re: Message From McQuoid
31/05/2006 15:19:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <ukantic@...> wrote:
>
> Someone has just sent me this (personal details withheld):
>
So,
1. The Vardy schools are being inundated with creationist books and
other material.
2. Creationism is being taught in science lessons.
Yet they deny point 2.
Any ideas as to what we should do? This letter needs much wider
publicity.
Does government policy now stop teaching of creationism in science
classes in Vardy schools?
Roger Stanyard
>
942
Joe Cooper
Re: Re: Creationists wanted
31/05/2006 19:52:00
ukantic wrote:
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
> wrote:
> > Hello Alan,
> >
> > How about posting an "advert" in
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/creation_evolution_debate
> > where you will find more than a handful of YECers, complete with
> > their opinions, regurgiquotes, waco theories about the Ark being
> > placed in orbit above the earth, gems like alleles are foreign
> > languages, anti-catholicisms, anti-Brit rhetoric and a whole host
> of
> > enlightening information?
> >
> > You or someone else will need to put the advertisement in as I
> walked
> > out of the group after a week.
> >
> > Roger
> >
>
> I have had a quick look Roger & I have just remembered why I decided
> not to let in creationists in the first place. Do we really want the
> likes of Kevi & his half-witted mates in here? Incidentally, is that
> the forum that no longer has a moderator?
>
> Alan.
>
>
Avery Linden is the moderator.
943
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Message From McQuoid
31/05/2006 22:36:00
Roger Stanyard wrote:
> Does government policy now stop teaching of creationism in science
> classes in Vardy schools?
Officially, yes. Unofficially, the school couldn't give a shit
944
Roger Stanyard
Re: Message From McQuoid
31/05/2006 22:43:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...>
wrote:
>
> Roger Stanyard wrote:
>
> > Does government policy now stop teaching of creationism in science
> > classes in Vardy schools?
>
> Officially, yes. Unofficially, the school couldn't give a shit
>
So the fundies are lying again. Nice bedfellows Nick Cowan has got.
945
oeditor
Re: Message From McQuoid
01/06/2006 00:49:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
> So the fundies are lying again. Nice bedfellows Nick Cowan has got.
>
Nick was invited into this group, and as a fellow chemist I'd like to
hear his justification for his remarkably unscientific views. But
opening the group to demented American teenagers (see other messages)
is another matter. Suppose we do a deal: we listen to the YECers, but
only if Nick recommends them. After all, he wouldn't want his case
damaged by nutters, would he? He wouldn't, would he?
Brian
946
Lenny Flank
Re: Re: Message From McQuoid
01/06/2006 01:09:00
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
> wrote: > So the fundies are lying again. Nice bedfellows Nick Cowan
> has got. > Nick was invited into this group, and as a fellow chemist
> I'd like to hear his justification for his remarkably unscientific
> views. But opening the group to demented American teenagers (see other
> messages) is another matter. Suppose we do a deal: we listen to the
> YECers, but only if Nick recommends them. After all, he wouldn't want
> his case damaged by nutters, would he? He wouldn't, would he?
>
I'd like Nick to answer my simple questions.
How did ALL the dinosaurs, without exception, manage to be buried by
a "mudslide", but NONE, NOT A SINGLE ONE, of the humans were.
And how did the flying pterosaurs manage to get buried by the same
mudslide?
And what about the dead buried corpses of the human ancestors. Did
the raging flood waters dig them all up and float them to the top of
the geological column along with all the live humans?
Oh, and what about the cities and stone buildings that humans built
before the flood. Did the stones run for the high ground, too?
What about the trees, Nick ---- did they also run for the high
gtround? Did the mudslide pick them all up, too?
I find it impossible to believe that any adult human being could
actually believe tripe like this. Come on, Nick -- you're just
pulling our leg, right?
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
947
Peter Hearty
Re: Re: Message From McQuoid
01/06/2006 08:00:00
I'm a newcomer to this group, but I like that idea.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "oeditor" <b-jordan@lineone.net>
To: <BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:49 AM
Subject: [BlackShadow] Re: Message From McQuoid
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
> > So the fundies are lying again. Nice bedfellows Nick Cowan has got.
> >
> Nick was invited into this group, and as a fellow chemist I'd like to
> hear his justification for his remarkably unscientific views. But
> opening the group to demented American teenagers (see other messages)
> is another matter. Suppose we do a deal: we listen to the YECers, but
> only if Nick recommends them. After all, he wouldn't want his case
> damaged by nutters, would he? He wouldn't, would he?
>
> Brian
>
>
948
Roger Stanyard
Re: Message From McQuoid
01/06/2006 10:15:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
>Suppose we do a deal: we listen to the YECers, but
> only if Nick recommends them. After all, he wouldn't want his case
> damaged by nutters, would he? He wouldn't, would he?
>
> Brian
I agree with that; sounds like a good compromise.
Roger Stanyard
949
ukantic
Open season on evilutionists.
01/06/2006 12:45:00
Okay then, having listened to everyone, it's obvious that there is a
popular demand for widening the group membership to include
creationists. I will modify the group description to indicate this.
The only stipulation is that I reserve the right to kick them out
again if they start getting nasty.
So pass the word around Nick, it's open season on them evil
evilolutionists!
Alan.
950
Andrew
Re: Open season on evilutionists.
01/06/2006 16:40:00
----- Original Message -----
From: ukantic
> The only stipulation is that I reserve the right to kick them out
> again if they start getting nasty.
Please do. :D Christian fundamentalists are among the most unpleasant
people I've ever encountered in my life, once they get started.
