501
ukantic
Campbell calls on Blair to intervene in fight against academy plan
11/04/2006 12:51:00
Campbell calls on Blair to intervene in fight against academy plan
By KAYE HENRY (10 April 06)
http://www.blyth-wansbecktoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=1115&ArticleID=\
1422950
http://tinyurl.com/l8r6u
OUTSPOKEN MP Ronnie Campbell is calling on the Prime Minister to
intervene in the fight against an academy in Blyth.
Ronnie Campbell has written to Tony Blair asking for him to meet with
representatives of Blyth Community College to discuss concerns over
its future in the event of an independent academy being built in the town.
The letter comes after a conversation between the PM and Mr Campbell
over the government's Education Bill and a later meeting between the
MP, college headteacher Pat Armstrong and chairman of governors Eric
Young.
In the letter he says: "As you will appreciate this is a very great
concern for people living in my constituency, especially the young,
who this is going to effect."
He hopes a meeting can be arranged to discuss the future education of
children living in Blyth and the effect an academy will have on the
state-of-the-art college, which opened in 2002 at a cost of £15m.
The pupil teacher ratio of private schools is one teacher to 12-15
pupils compared to state schools one teacher to a class of about
25-30 pupils.
But Mr Campbell says: "We should use the money to get teacher ratio
down to the same as private schools. We need more teachers.
"I asked the PM why we cannot get our schools in the same ratio as
independent schools. If we could do that we would be fine.
"I am about getting the best school that I can in Blyth Valley, not
two best schools next door to each other and in competition with each
other.
"I am sure of one thing one school will lose out."
Fears have been raised that should the new private academy be built in
Blyth by car businessman Peter Vardy, of Reg Vardy, Blyth Community
College will struggle in competition for the best pupils.
College representatives also say the academy will leave the college
with 300 surplus places.
Mr Campbell has also hit out at the financing of the academy, which is
expected to cost about £25m in capital funding.
Proposals include the development of an 11 to 18 academy to specialise
in business and enterprise.
Feasibility work is to be carried out and will also explore the option
of including four to 11 places, creating an all-age academy.
502
jbs13uk
BBC web: Creationism no place in schools
11/04/2006 13:02:00
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4896652.stm
"Leading scientists have warned against the teaching of creationism,
the Bible-based version of the origins of the Earth, in schools."
503
ukantic
Talk Reason update
11/04/2006 13:04:00
Forrest Mims: 'crazy kook', says Pianka
By Nick Matzke
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Mims.cfm
Nik Matzke adds more thoughts about the shameful attack of ID advocates
upon Professor Eric Pianka. Dembski and Mims well represent the crazy
crowd which is hysterically cursing Eric Pianka for something the latter
apparently has not said nor done.
published: Apr 07, 2006
504
ukantic
Talk Reason update
11/04/2006 13:28:00
Science and Non-Science: An Epistemological Conflict
By M. E. Kabay, PhD, CISSP
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/science.cfm
A small minority of religious people are confusing the public about
fundamental differences between science and religion. This essay is
intended to help clarify the issues and to support educators,
politicians and
ordinary people opposing the imposed introduction of religion into
science classrooms.
published: Apr 05, 2006
505
jbs13uk
Daily Mail: Pupils confused by science lessons in creationism
11/04/2006 13:32:00
Link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=3826\
94&in_page_id=1770
Article include reader comments and poll.
"Leading scientists have launched an unprecedented attack on the
teaching of creationist theories in Tony Blair's flagship academies.
Britain's most prestigious scientific body, the Royal Society, said
children were being confused by the teaching of the Bible's creation
story in science lessons.
It follows a recent revival in creationist thinking, most notably in
three schools supported by multi-millionaire car dealer and
evangelical Christian Sir Peter Vardy."
506
ukantic
Re: The New Fundamentalists
11/04/2006 15:15:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> FYI: There is currently a substantial and lively debate on Ron Liddle's
> programme, The New Fundamentalists, on the Channel 4 web site. The URL
> is
> http://community.channel4.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/69460501/m/18800461
> 24.
>
> Sorry, I don't yet know how to create a tinyURL.
Hi Roger,
I mentioned Tinyurl in post 311:
Notes on TinyURL
Nothing is more irritating than trying to reconstruct a long URL
that has broken across one or more lines. I tend not to even bother
& I suspect many people are the same. That is why I recommend the
use of TinyURL. However, even this can be a nuisance to use, so here
are a few tips on how to do so effectively.
Firstly, there is no need to use TinyURL unless it seems likely that
the URL is so long it is liable break across a line.
Secondly, the best way to use TinyURL is to place it into the IE
links toolbar as shown at:
http://tinyurl.com/#toolbar
If using Firefox, go to the same page & simple drag the TinyURL link
to a spare space on the toolbar.
In either case it takes up an insignificant amount of room & will
automatically generate a TinyURL link of any page when clicked on.
As Brian has pointed out, TinyUrl even copies the reduced URL to the
clipboard. Therefore copying a Tinyurl (for me) consists of two
operations simply clicking on the Tinyurl logo (with the relevant
page in view of course) in the toolbar, then pressing the paste button
on the keyboard.
Alan.
507
jbs13uk
Steve Jones webcast: watch online
12/04/2006 18:17:00
"Why Creationsim is wrong and Evolution is right"
[url=http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/page.asp?id=4400&tip=1]Link[/url]
508
Roger Stanyard
John Mackay
13/04/2006 09:58:00
Hello All,
Is anyone planning a picket/demo against John Mackay. If so, I would be
interested in joining it.
I have posted words to this effect on the NSS newsline and the
ScienceJustScience forum.
Roger Stanyard
509
jbs13uk
Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 13:47:00
Phillip's column:
Also,
An extract from a recent Peter Hitchens piece:
Additionally, there's a letter of support for Vardy in today's
(Fri14Apr06) Daily Mail. Page 62.
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@...> wrote:
>
> I reckon Mikey's talking about the latest polemic from Melanie "MMR"
> Phillips. I can't find a link on the DM website but I'll have the
> chance to scan the article tomorrow (Tues) so if it hasn't appeared
> I'll upload it for you to read.
>
> J.
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <mike@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I saw today that one of the columnists in the Daily Mail argued for
> > ID...
> > >
> > I can't find it on their site - have you a url please?
> > TIA
> > Brian
> >
>
510
Roger Stanyard
Some Notes on Dodgy Creationist Practices
14/04/2006 15:08:00
Alan, et all,
I posted parts of the following to the NSS group but here it is in
full. Do what you feel fit with it but it raises a lot of points and
issues about the fundie mindset.
The latest on Mackay.
Creation Ministries UK issued another press statement on 12th April
regarding Mackay's UK tour. It can be found at
http://www.amen.org.uk/cr/CR_PressRelease060412.htm
I have seen thousands of press releases in my time (and produced more
than a few) and this one takes the biscuit. It displays every fundie
trick in the book. From experience, I have become well-used to
reading between the lines in fundie statements. They are as wily as
they come.
The purpose of this posting is to show their tricks, in particular,
the fundie shuffle, the martyrdom complex, the smear and innuendo
tactics and the outrightly dishonest use of the English language.
This one's got the lot and also manages to breach the Ninth
Commandment to boot.
The press released is issued in the name of Randall Hardy of Creation
Ministries UK.
Read this, for example: Whilst Creation Research welcomes invitations
to speak in schools and universities, we do not "target" them or any
other institutions. What we do target is the unbelief in Jesus Christ
which is underpinned in some people's minds by the claims that
evolution has been unequivocally proved.
No mention, of course about Creation Ministries religion just the
bogus and meaningless trick of stating that "some people" believe
that evolution has been unequivocally proved" It's rhetoric meant to
cast doubt in people's minds. Without having the courage to say so,
it was implying that some, wiser, people believed otherwise. It
doesn't even say that evolution is unproven.
For what it is Worth Nobody believes that The Theory of Evolution
is proven, not even its most dedicated advocates amongst biologists.
It's science and the basis of all science is scepticism. It's always
being revised as new evidence comes to light.
Dirty tricks by Randall Hardy again.
Randall Hardy then moves onto the standard Martyrdom trick of fundies
(it's as old as the hills). That is, how unreasonable is it for
people to oppose academy and faith schools and all they want to do is
ridicule Christian fundamentalists. No mention, of course, that there
is serious public debate about the issues which run well beyond the
religious issues (such as selection, quality of results, local
control, the high costs
)
No, Randall Hardy whines on that the whole shooting match is
dominated by atheists and people stupid enough to join them. Hardy
also whinges on that "it is convenient" to ridicule fundamentalists,
whatever that means? See no precise meaning to the words all
rhetoric, no substance.
Randall Hardy also demonstrates a brilliant example of the fundie
shuffle (old, old trick). Instead of calling the media atheists who
misrepresent everything (as he has previously done so), he now
provides no explanation why he is not answering their simple
question what s the name of the school where Mackay is teaching for
three days.
Instead he "attacks" an obscure web site, Ekklesia (no URL given it
is, though www.ekklesia.co.uk). Ekklesia is a religious web site.
Unlike the Observer, the BBC, TES, Sky News and others that have
approached Randall, this is a soft target for him.
Judge for oneself if the Ekklesia article is full of "lavish amounts
of spin" as Hardy suggests:
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060410creat
ion.shtml. I can't see a word of spin in it anywhere.
Somewhere in the deeper recesses of the minds of Creation Ministries,
someone has figured out that you get bad publicity if you ridicule
the national media. Hence, I assume, targeting Ekklesia instead.
Randall Hardy then moves onto the next fundie trick "We are good
guys" and how unreasonable people are to "us". To quote: "Whilst
Creation Research welcomes invitations to speak in schools and
universities, we do not "target" them or any other institutions.
Sadly, Randall Hardy must have a definition of target that I am now
aware of. What he is trying to say is that Mackay's visit to the UK
is solely a result of requests, not a managed event to have maximum
impact. Managed it is; Hardy is one of the managers. The target is
people (including children) who it thinks will be amenable to its
proselytising. That includes those in schools and universities.
Now, here is the biggest lie of the lot: "Unlike the British Humanist
Association we are not involved in a political campaign." Randall
missed out the word "yet" turning an honest statement into a breach
of the Ninth Commandment.
(Lying and deception is commonplace in the fundamentalist movement.
That's how it has become so influential in the USA.)
Mackay set up AiG alongside Ken Ham. Creation Ministries is a spin
off from AiG. AiG is part of the hard line fundamentalist Christian
Republican movement in the USA. Its ties to Dominionism
(Reconstructionism), which advocates the creation of a theocracy
along the lines of that in Iran, are legendary.
Note how Randall Hardy carefully associates the BHA with politics in
contrast to he own squeaky clean outfit. What he doesn't point out is
that the BHA, when it comes to politics, is largely a single issue
organisation. Fundamentalists such as the AiG and its allies and
apologists want to take over the state.
Having given up his past attacks on the media for being atheistic,
Randall Hardy now carefully tries to lead the reader into believing
that the real opposition are the atheists at the NSS (a single issue
organisation whose aims are supported by many Christians) and the BHA.
Note also how Hardy carefull tries to include all Christians as well
as fundamentalists as being onside. Never mind that the mainstream
denominations oppose his scientific hocus pocus or that the Anglican
clergy in Lancashire have (in their own words) "Hit the roof" over
Mackay's teaching in state schools there.
Then there is the outright smearing: ".We are however concerned that
secular groups are seeking to prohibit open debate in any part of
society, particularly by censorship through ridicule." No evidence is
being presented that these (unnamed) secular groups are "seeking to
prohibit open debate", just the innuendo that Randall is "concerned"
that they are. It's neither a statement that they are or they could
be. Its just a nasty piece of rhetoric that secularists intend to
close down all open debate everywhere.
It's the martyrdom complex again how unreasonable the world is in
treating fundamentalists.
Then Hardy goes on to suggest that the press can meet Mackay on the
24th April (three days after he starts his tour are those the three
days when he teaches in Lancashire?). So why not just tell the
journalists today the name of the school? Why wait 12 days (no
explanation given)? Its easily done today, on the web, and won't take
up Mackay's valuable time in his busy itinerary.
For Journalists reading this statement by Hardy I would add the
following points:
Mackay is not a practising geologist and appears to have never been
so. He was originally a school teacher and appears to have been a
full time religious proselytiser since the 1970s. I have a degree in
economics. I don't practice the subject professionally, therefore I
would consider myself to be a fraud if I called myself an economist.
You may wish to judge Mackay by the same standard.
Mackay has never had published in a scientific publication any peer
reviewed paper of his research. Not one. Zilch. Zero.
Creation Ministries is a recent spin-off from the American-based
Answers in Genesis which claims to promote scientific evidence that
supports the literal interpretation of the bible. Included in this is
the belief that the world was created in six days some 6,000 years
ago and that the Noah's Ark story is accurate. The whole of its
scientific arguments have been debunked at www.talkorigins.org.
Despite claims otherwise, virtually no scientists support the
creationist view point.
Mackay formed Answers in Genesis with Ken Ham in the late 1970s. Ham
moved to the USA in 1987 where he was seconded to another creationist
organisation, the Institute for Creation Research. Ham formed the US
arm of Answers in Genesis in 1994. Creation Ministries was spun off
from AiG in early 2006. Ham who has been active in pushing the AiG
agenda in the UK, still heads the US AiG operation.
There is no information of any significance in the public domain to
indicate why Ham and Mackay have now parted company but there is
evidence of a turf war between the two in the UK. The public
pronouncements of Creation Ministries and AiG USA had clearly stated
that the UK is AiG territorry and, indeed, it still has a branch in
the UK. However, Hardy's web site states that there is an
organisation called Creation Ministries UK and Mackay is clearly
proselytising under this banner.
Moreover, I understand that Ken Ham will be proselytising in
Australia in June 2006.
There is some evidence that the fall out relates to profits from the
sale of books. The Australians were publishing using other publishing
organisations. AiG publishes in-house. Out of spite, in appears, AiG
published a damning review of one the Australian books involved. The
book involved is Unlocking the Mysteries of Creation by Dennis
Petersen (see www.tccsa.tc/articles/p3.html)
Here is what it says: "AiG/Wieland offers to do pre-publication
reviews of any creationist writings for a price, with the claim
that "dozens of valuable hours of their high powered staff" are
expensive. But AiG has revealed a sad double standard in dealing with
a competing creationist author (who had turned down their offer
of "review for a price" and rejected AiG's offer of "taking over the
publication with AiG having final editorial say"). They waited until
the author's new book was published. Then, with no charge at all,
they allocated their "high powered staff" the time to attack this
publication then released their brutal review for free to the public
non-Christians included. "
"Following the publication of Dennis Petersen's book "Unlocking the
Mysteries of Creation", Ken Ham, Carl Weiland and Answers in Genesis
(AiG) produced a 14 page detailed criticism condemning the book,
which they placed as a feature article on their publicly accessible
website."
AiG/Wieland is a reference to Carl Wieland of the AiG. However, I
cannot establish the relationship with an organisation called
Creation Research which appears to be involved in the affair. This
may be the Institute for Creation research or another name for
Creation Ministries which I believe has called its Creation Research
Ministries.
Creation Ministries UK is based in Ashton under Lyne in Lancashire,
the same country where Mackay is expected to spend three days
proselytising in a state school.
Creation Ministries in Australia is headquartered in Queensland.
The press release is as follows:
John Mackay's visit to the UK 21 April to 28 June 2006
John Mackay, Australian International Director of Creation Research,
is due to arrive in Britain on 20th April for one of his regular
visits to this country. John Mackay is a widely travelled geologist
and has also studied genetics. (His full biography can be found on
our web sites.) During the above dates John will be speaking in
venues from the Isle of Wight in England to Crieff in Scotland and as
far west as Haverfordwest in Wales.
John Mackay has been visiting Britain regularly for over 15 years. On
many of those visits he has spoken in schools and universities as
well as local churches. On several occasions he has debated with
evolutionary scientists from both within and outside the Christian
Church. In March last year, in Liverpool Cathedral, he debated with
Rev. Dr. John Polkinghorne KBE, FRS on the subject, "Is Evolution
Compatible with the Christian Faith?" Two further debates are
arranged for this visit; details are on our UK web site along with
the rest of his itinerary.
On April 6th, the Blackpool Citizen carried a lead story
entitled, "Debate about creation". This followed up contact from one
of its readers, who had heard that John was to visit a local school.
Approximately 3 hours after that story appeared on their web site, we
were contacted by The Observer newspaper seeking further details.
What should be of interest to all is that their reporter had been
alerted to Blackpool Citizen's story by an email circulated by the
National Secular Society. The Observer published its story on April
9th and since then our UK office has received numerous enquiries from
the media about John Mackay's visit, along with requests to interview
him.
One report, on the Ekklesia web site, carries the
headline "Creationists target schools and universities in Britain".
This is a report put together without any direct contact with
ourselves and suffers from lavish amounts of spin. Whilst Creation
Research welcomes invitations to speak in schools and universities,
we do not "target" them or any other institutions. What we do target
is the unbelief in Jesus Christ which is underpinned in some people's
minds by the claims that evolution has been unequivocally proved.
Though John Mackay has been visiting schools and universities in
Britain for over 15 years, it is only in the last 5 years that these
visits have caught the attention of the media. This is because over
those years there has been a sustained campaign against the British
government's education policies with regard to academy schools
and "faith schools". It has been convenient to those conducting that
campaign to ridicule Christians, and creationists in particular, in
an attempt to change that policy. It is a campaign being motivated by
people who are primarily atheists, though sadly others have been
drawn into supporting them.
Creation Research's priority has always been to present the evidence
for creation and against evolution. We believe that to the honest
enquirer, the evidence speaks for itself. Unlike the British Humanist
Association we are not involved in a political campaign. We are
however concerned that secular groups are seeking to prohibit open
debate in any part of society, particularly by censorship through
ridicule.
John Mackay will be available for interview by the media from Monday
24th April onwards. However, because he already has a pre-arranged
itinerary we ask any reporters/researchers interested in speaking
with him to contact us as soon as possible to arrange a suitable time.
For further information or to arrange an interview contact:
Randall Hardy Tel / Fax: 0161-282-1111 Email:
creationresearch@amen.org.uk
Creation Research, PO Box 1, Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancashire. OL6 9WW
I have just looked at Randall Hardy's March update for Mackay's tour.
Given that it is almost impossible to understand what fundamentalists
mean (at least on the 1st read), I may be wrong about this but the
report seems to suggest that a whole team (or at least few people)
from Creation Ministries will be in the Lancashire school for three
days.
Here is what it says (note the term "we will be spending" and the
references to three other people than John (presumed to be John
Mackay)):
"The whole team would especially value your prayers for the week
after the Family Conference, when we will be spending three days in a
state secondary school near Blackpool. Opportunities like this are
very few and far between. Please pray for the pupils and staff at the
school as well as for John, Vance, Korelei and Diane. Pray for the
practical arrangements also. Teachers have a lot resting on their
shoulders these days and getting the information we need to plan each
day's lessons has not proved easy."
So, it looks like there are four people there. The other three
mentioned appear to be Vance and Korelei Nelson from Canada and Dr.
Diane Eager from Australia. You don't put a PhD into a school to make
the coffee btw.
OK, let's assume that four people are teaching for three days in this
school and they teach for five hours each. Millfield has approx 900
pupils. Assuming a class size of 30 means they can teach 60 of 90
classes, or 2/3rds of the pupils, for one hour. If its St Aidan's
which I believe has 600 pupils, they get to teach the lot.
511
Roger Stanyard
Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 15:16:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@...> wrote:
>
Well,
It looks as if the Daily Mail has put its full weight behind
creationism, as I expected it to. That's VERY VERY BAD NEWS.
The Mail will present the whole issue as one between christians and
atheists - their idea of "good and bad". I suspect it is
the "godsend" they have been looking for years for.
Still, the only positive element is that Phillips doesn't understand
ID (such lack of understanding has never stopped her in the past,
though).
Roger Stanyard
Phillip's column:
>
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9941/dailymailphillipsmuppet10apr06.j
pg
>
> Also,
> An extract from a recent Peter Hitchens piece:
>
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3481/mailonsundayhitchensmuppet9apr
.jpg
>
> Additionally, there's a letter of support for Vardy in today's
> (Fri14Apr06) Daily Mail. Page 62.
>
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@> wrote:
> >
> > I reckon Mikey's talking about the latest polemic from
Melanie "MMR"
> > Phillips. I can't find a link on the DM website but I'll have the
> > chance to scan the article tomorrow (Tues) so if it hasn't
appeared
> > I'll upload it for you to read.
> >
> > J.
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <mike@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I saw today that one of the columnists in the Daily Mail
argued for
> > > ID...
> > > >
> > > I can't find it on their site - have you a url please?
> > > TIA
> > > Brian
> > >
> >
>
512
oeditor
Re: Some Notes on Dodgy Creationist Practices
14/04/2006 15:55:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> Alan, et all,
>
> Now, here is the biggest lie of the lot: "Unlike the British Humanist
> Association we are not involved in a political campaign."
The BHA, being a registered charity, cannot be involved in a political
campaign anyway. The NSS, not being a charity, can. Quite how politics
is defined by the Charity Commission, I don't know. I'd have thought a
single-issue body trying to drive American and Australian nonsense
into British children's minds is about as political as it gets.
Brian
513
oeditor
Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 16:09:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
>
> Phillip's column:
> >
> http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9941/dailymailphillipsmuppet10apr06.j
> pg
And such an unbiassed reporter, too! Phillips claims there the the
"[Judas Gospel] was written too late to be credible. Whereas wikipedia
says:
"Due to textual analysis for linguistic quirks, such as arcane
language features, and features that become lost in translation, most
academics who have analysed the Gospel of Judas believe that it is
probably a translation from an older Greek work dating to AD 130β"170.
For a comparison, the generally accepted dating for the canonical
Gospel of John is only a few decades earlier in AD 95-110, and as well
as the earlier estimates coming from a number of Christian scholars,
several other academics have proposed later dates for the Gospel of
John that overlap with those for the Gospel of Judas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
She also claims that science cannot explain "irriducible complexity".
Excuse please, but science can come up with a bloody sight better
expanation than the cretininsts can.
Spit!
Brian
514
Dean Morrison
RE: Re: Some Notes on Dodgy Creationist Practices
14/04/2006 16:26:00
Thanks for this - and good luck with tracking these hideous people down. Presumably the local paper know what the school is but perhaps they're saving it for a 'scoop'?
----
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 2217 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
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515
oeditor
Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 16:27:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> > Also,
> > An extract from a recent Peter Hitchens piece:
> >
> http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3481/mailonsundayhitchensmuppet9apr
> .jpg
Evolution=fanatical atheism. Hmm, tell that to the Archbishop!
Is it meant to be a parody, a self parody, or does the idiot really
believe it?
Brian
516
jbs13uk
Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 16:32:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@> wrote:
> >
> Well,
>
> It looks as if the Daily Mail has put its full weight behind
> creationism, as I expected it to. That's VERY VERY BAD NEWS.
>
This isn't the case. Science editor Michael Hanlon had this piece
published in the Mail recently:
It's not the paper we should be responding to but the individual
columnists.
Jim.
517
oeditor
Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 16:44:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
>
> Evolution=fanatical atheism. Hmm, tell that to the Archbishop!
> Is it meant to be a parody, a self parody, or does the idiot really
> believe it?
>
That was about evolution from fishes. Which reminded me to wonder,
once again, how fish came to be extinguished by Noah's flood. How do
the cretinists explain it away?
Brian
518
Roger Stanyard
Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 16:44:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@...> wrote:
>
Jim,
I just hope that you are right but even the science editor is toeing
the editorial line that its all about the country going to the dogs.
He uses the term decadence and lack of reason to make the point.
From what I have seen in the States, the Mail looks to be a natural
partner for the growing religious fundamentalist right in Britain.
I just don't trust the Mail's intentions, never have, never will.
Roger Stanyard
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@> wrote:
> > >
> > Well,
> >
> > It looks as if the Daily Mail has put its full weight behind
> > creationism, as I expected it to. That's VERY VERY BAD NEWS.
> >
>
> This isn't the case. Science editor Michael Hanlon had this piece
> published in the Mail recently:
>
>
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2029/dailymailcrisisofspirit22mar06
.jpg
>
> It's not the paper we should be responding to but the individual
> columnists.
>
> Jim.
>
519
Dean Morrison
RE: Re: Steve Jones webcast: creationism/evolution Tues11Apr06
14/04/2006 16:45:00
I've posted those links to the 'Badscience' site - perhaps Ben Goldacre will find time to give her a mauling?
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520
jbs13uk
Re: Debate about creation
16/04/2006 12:47:00
Alan,
The Citizen has published your letter! Page 25 of the 13th April edition.
Jim.
>
> I e-mailed this off last night to the letters section of the
> Blackpool Citizen
>
> Sir,
>
> I wish to comment on your recent article, "debate about creation" in
> which it is stated the creationist John Mackay will visit a
> secondary school in this area.
>
> Firstly, there is absolutely no debate within the mainstream
> scientific community over the soundness of the theory of evolution.
> Although there may be disagreement about relatively minor details,
> the core principles are widely accepted & are confirmed by a massive
> amount of evidence stretching across many disciplines.
>
> This is the message that we should be sending to our schoolchildren,
> not the pathetic nonsense preached by a fundamentalist from
> Australia.
>
> Secondly, I am appalled by the deceitful rhetoric of John Mackay. He
> seems to be deliberately creating the impression that he & other
> creationists are subject to victimisation, talking for example of
> abuse & vilification.
>
> They are the ones going out of their way to impose their discredited
> & extreme views on other people's children & I am amazed that they
> feel they should be allowed to do so without criticism.
>
> In a circular distributed by John Mackay's organisation, they speak
> of spending three days in a state school near Blackpool. If this is
> allowed to happen then the children concerned will have their
> understanding of modern biology & geology seriously undermined.
>
> Although the creationists are trying to keep the exact location of
> the school a secret, I would nevertheless urge all concerned parents
> to make their disapproval known at their school.
>
> If these people are so sure that they can prove that the universe
> was created as described in the Bible, then they should present
> their arguments through the normal scientific channels of peer
> review, etc, rather than trying to force them onto schoolchildren.
>
> Alan.
>
521
Dean Morrison
RE: Re: Debate about creation
16/04/2006 14:25:00
Good one Alan! i wonder if there will be any response from parents?
----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jbs13uk
Sent: 16 April 2006 12:48
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Re: Debate about creation
Alan,
The Citizen has published your letter! Page 25 of the 13th April edition.
Jim.
>
> I e-mailed this off last night to the letters section of the
> Blackpool Citizen
>
> Sir,
>
> I wish to comment on your recent article, "debate about creation" in
> which it is stated the creationist John Mackay will visit a
> secondary school in this area.
>
> Firstly, there is absolutely no debate within the mainstream
> scientific community over the soundness of the theory of evolution.
> Although there may be disagreement about relatively minor details,
> the core principles are widely accepted & are confirmed by a massive
> amount of evidence stretching across many disciplines.
>
> This is the message that we should be sending to our schoolchildren,
> not the pathetic nonsense preached by a fundamentalist from
> Australia.
>
> Secondly, I am appalled by the deceitful rhetoric of John Mackay. He
> seems to be deliberately creating the impression that he & other
> creationists are subject to victimisation, talking for example of
> abuse & vilification.
>
> They are the ones going out of their way to impose their discredited
> & extreme views on other people's children & I am amazed that they
> feel they should be allowed to do so without criticism.
>
> In a circular distributed by John Mackay's organisation, they speak
> of spending three days in a state school near Blackpool. If this is
> allowed to happen then the children concerned will have their
> understanding of modern biology & geology seriously undermined.
>
> Although the creationists are trying to keep the exact location of
> the school a secret, I would nevertheless urge all concerned parents
> to make their disapproval known at their school.
>
> If these people are so sure that they can prove that the universe
> was created as described in the Bible, then they should present
> their arguments through the normal scientific channels of peer
> review, etc, rather than trying to force them onto schoolchildren.
>
> Alan.
>
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522
ukantic
Re: Debate about creation
16/04/2006 21:02:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Morrison" <deanmorrison@...>
wrote:
>
> Good one Alan! i wonder if there will be any response from parents?
>
Thanks Jim & Dean
With all the bad publicity that is starting to surround this issue, if
a few parents did decide to complain, then it is just possible that
the head teacher concerned will think twice about the whole idea.
Alan
523
Roger Stanyard
Mackay''s Flies Undone
18/04/2006 08:24:00
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,1755770,00.html
STAR OF CREATIONIST CIRCUIT FLIES IN HOPING TO STIR THE FAITHFUL IN
SMALL
TOWNS OF BRITAIN
The Guardian has got this one wrong. It's this week that Mackay flies
in (he may already be here given that he probaby needs some time to
recover from jet lag).
Mackay's first speaking engagement is on the Isle of Wight on 21st
April.
Is anyone planning to "attend" any of his engagements?
The Grauniad also under-estimates Mackay; a
year or so back Mackay debated with a senior Anglican in (I think)
Liverpool cathedral to an audience of (Mackay claims) 1,100.
Mackay is bragging how he won the debate.
He has also got his people onto TV (Revelation TV) dusing his two-
month tour and the nutters are also holding a conference in Swanick
that the Grauniad failed to mention.
Also not mentioned in the Grauniad is the scam where he has got into
a state school in Lancashire to teach creationism behind closed
doors. He's got three other of his crew into the school as well.
The Grauniad also fails to mention that he is also preaching to
ANglicans and some of his venues are Anglican churches/halls.
Mackay is "speaking" to the press early next week. See
www.amen.org.uk.
Mackay's lot in the UK appear to consist of an electrician (Randall
Hardy) and his wife and a couple of other lightweights but he has
also shipped in two Canadians and another Australian for the "tour".
Overall, Mackay is a lot better organised than the Grauniad suggests.
Roger Stanyard
Grauniad Report as follows: Far away from lofty pulpits, a small band
will gather to welcome their
champion
Stephen Bates, religious affairs correspondent
Tuesday April 18, 2006
The Guardian
Next week, an Australian will jet into Heathrow for a lecture tour
that will
gladden the hearts of the small but dauntless band of British
creationists,
believers in the biblical account of the origins of the world.
John Mackay, a former science teacher from Queensland, whose
photograph
shows him looking not unlike Indiana Jones, grinning in bush hat and
open
necked shirt, is one of Creation Science's speaking stars. He will
console
believers that Genesis is true, that the Earth is not millions of
years old
but only a few thousand and that science proves it, rather than the
Darwinian theory of evolution accepted by the overwhelming majority of
scientists for more than a century.
He comes here most years, though his 31 engagements from Scotland to
Kent
are mainly in nonconformist church halls and non-mainstream chapels
rather
than the loftiest pulpits or highest groves of academe. There will be
talks
at places like the Living Waters Fellowship at Newport, Isle of
Wight, the
Christian Outreach Centre in Bournemouth and the Destiny Church in
Edinburgh. An appearance at Bangor University turns out to be in a
hall
hired by local evangelicals for the occasion.
There will even be a week-long Family Creation Conference in tents at
the
Cefn Lea Christian Holiday Park near Newtown in mid-Wales, for which
about
40 families have signed up, at which Mr Mackay will attempt to answer
fundamental questions such as: Did bees sting before Adam sinned? Why
would
birds need to migrate in a good world? What would polar bears do in a
world
with no ice and what did great white sharks eat before Aussies went
surfing?
The answers may seem obvious, but it is proof that even believers in
the
inerrancy of the Bible feel the need to seek something scientific to
bolster
their case.
What gives this two-month trip added point is the mounting attacks on
creationism from scientists such as Richard Dawkins and Steve Jones
and
teachers' unions.
"I am very pleased with the brilliant publicity they give us," said
Randall
Hardy who runs the British branch of Mackay's Creation Research
organisation
from an office in Ashton-underLyne. "If I had rung up every newspaper
I
could not have got the same response. We ask these people to debate
with
John but they won't. David Attenborough replied about 10 years ago to
say
no, but Richard Dawkins never replies. They don't want to give us
credibility. I think it is a form of censorship.
"Even some Muslims believe in creation but John would not preach in a
mosque. They'd have to let him preach Jesus Christ first.
"Myself, I have been a fundamentalist Christian for 40 years. I think
the
Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old. I am saddened that more
prominent
churchmen do not hold to the traditional understanding of the
scriptures."
Creation Research says that requests for information have risen from
400 to
1,400 in recent years. Its sister body, the Creation Science
Movement, which
claims to be the oldest such organisation in the world, founded in
1932, is
run by David Rosevear, a retired chemist, in Portsmouth. It claims
about
1,000 members and is advertising forthcoming lectures by one of its
five
speakers, mainly in church halls in Northamptonshire.
It is not clear how far membership of the two groups doubles up. But
it is
all rather a far cry from similar American foundations propounding
creationism and its allegedly more sophisticated offshoot, intelligent
design, which postulates that the world is so complex it must have
been
designed, though not necessarily by a divine creator.
"We are getting more interest from the US ourselves," says Dr
Rosevear, a
Baptist. "The majority over there still go to church, just like here
when I
was a kid. For myself, I think it is the churches' fault. They have
gone
away from the scriptures, messing about with homosexuality and
divorce. I
have studied evolution when I was at school and I decided it had to be
nonsense."
In some black churches too there is scepticism about evolution.
Bishop Wayne
Malcolm, leader of the Christian Life City church in Hackney, east
London,
disputes the scientific evidence for evolution. "There is clearly an
absence
in the fossil record for intermediate levels of development. If a frog
turned into a monkey, shouldn't you have lots of fronkies?"
All this causes bemusement to mainstream Christians - who would not be
considered Christians by Mr Hardy. Stephen Sykes, former Regius
Professor of
Divinity at Cambridge, Bishop of Ely, and now principal of St John's
theological college in Durham, said: "The Church of England has come
to
terms with evolution ... Evolution is not incompatible with a divine
God,
absolutely not."
524
Roger Stanyard
Re: Mackay''s Flies Undone
18/04/2006 11:29:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
wrote:
More notes on Mackay and pals:
Vance & Korelei Nelson, Creation Truth Ministries Canada: According
to CTM (http://www.creationtruthministries.org) Nelson is the
director of CTM. It states that he holds two earned degrees. He
earned a theology degree from North American Baptist College in 1997
(Bachelor of Religion with a specialisation in Christian ministry).
Nelson also earned a science degree in 2002 (BSc in biology). Nelson
also claims to have also studied concepts relating to creation and
evolution at the college level (10 credit-hours directly relating to
origin science).
However, no details are given as to the names of the colleges
involved or whether they are accredited.
The CTM website is bragging that it is making presentations in state
schools in England in May but does not name the schools:
April - England Tour
April 26th 1 Hour T.V. Program in U.K. with Call in Q & A.
April 30th London, Location T.B.A.
May - England Tour
May 1-5 Home School "Creation Conference" with Creation Research,
England.
May 8-12 School "Creation Presentations" in state schools (public
schools) with Creation Research, England.
May 14th Leeds/Doncaster, Location T.B.A.
The 26TH April TV event is on Revelation TV.
The 30th April venue is at Westminster Chapel. This is a
Congregationalist church and is a substantial building. Nelson is
also "presenting" at the Calvary Chapel (Westminster City School) in
Westminster the same evening.
The 8-12 venue is the one which is really stirring the shit. Mackay's
published itinerary completely omits the fact that it is over these
four days and, indeed, Amen.co.uk seems to be suggesting the event is
only for three days Tuesday 9th to Thursday 11th. (it doesn't
actually sate this though). So, if Nelson is being truthful, the
nutters have a full four days in the school.
According to Mackay's itinerary, he has nothing booked for the 8th
May yet Nelson cliams that he (Nelson) will be presenting in state
schools on the 8th.
Note that Nelson claims that he will be presenting in more than one
state school (he uses the plural).
Mackay is due to be in Lancashire from 7th May to 13th May (and back
on 16th May).
525
Roger Stanyard
Re: Mackay''s Flies Undone
18/04/2006 11:53:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
Mackay's explanation of earthquakes are that they are "the result of
the earth's groaning for the return of Christ." (Creation News, Vol 19,
No 2, 2005)
And this idiot and his pals have been given 4 days in a state school to
push this sort of hocus-pocus?
Srewth,
Roger Stanyard
526
oeditor
Letter to Guardian - please comment
18/04/2006 16:48:00
I'm sending the following letter to the Guardian. I'd welcome any
comments before I email it.
"Creationists and pupils.
Dear Sir,
You report (18.4.2006) that creationist John Mackay will be visiting
church halls and chapels, but not pulpits, to spread his biblical
literalist ideas. It would be just a prelude to the silly season, but
for one omission: he may not be visiting pulpits, but he will be
visiting pupils - and in full measure. His campaign's internal
publicity material indicates that he and his international group of
acolytes will be visiting at least one state school in or near
Blackpool, for three or four days in the week 8-12 May.
If Mackay's writings are anything to go by, he will be teaching
geology in such terms as earthquakes are the result of the earth's
groaning for the return of Christ", as he did to Boy Scouts of America
((Creation News, Vol19, No 2, 2005)
The identity of the school is being kept secret, supposedly to protect
staff and pupils from intrusion by journalists. This of course also
protects the creationists from protests by parents and deprives
parents of an opportunity to withdraw their children from his classes.
It may well also help to keep the education authority out of the
affair. One can only wonder whether their involvement with pupils will
be at a level requiring police vetting - which may well be impossible
with foreigners visiting in under three weeks' time."
TIA
Brian
527
oeditor
Re: Letter to Guardian - please comment
18/04/2006 17:46:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sending the following letter to the Guardian. I'd welcome any
> comments before I email it.
>
I've just found a link to the following - I knew it was there, but
couldn't include it in my letter without a public link. He charges a
minimum of Β£100 per class per day. So that's Β£300 per preacher for the
three days, to come out of school funds! I'll tack a query onto the
end of my letter.
http://www.creationresearch.net/PDF%20files/School%20costs.pdf
Brian
528
Dean Morrison
RE: Letter to Guardian - please comment
18/04/2006 18:43:00
All good apart from the end.. the police vetting you talk about presumably refers to CRB checks. I don't think these wouuld be required in these circumstances - there are exemptions for such things - and in any case the rules are different for a visting speaker to someone who has unrestricted acces to kids. In any case common sense has to prevail - the new Headteacher at my local primary hasn't received hers yet - and her existing one doesn't apply even though her previous job was in the same county. I'd just remove the last sentence - and perhaps put a reference to OFSTED afetter education authority?
Good luck!
Dean
----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of oeditor
Sent: 18 April 2006 16:48
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Letter to Guardian - please comment
I'm sending the following letter to the Guardian. I'd welcome any
comments before I email it.
"Creationists and pupils.
Dear Sir,
You report (18.4.2006) that creationist John Mackay will be visiting
church halls and chapels, but not pulpits, to spread his biblical
literalist ideas. It would be just a prelude to the silly season, but
for one omission: he may not be visiting pulpits, but he will be
visiting pupils - and in full measure. His campaign's internal
publicity material indicates that he and his international group of
acolytes will be visiting at least one state school in or near
Blackpool, for three or four days in the week 8-12 May.
If Mackay's writings are anything to go by, he will be teaching
geology in such terms as earthquakes are the result of the earth's
groaning for the return of Christ", as he did to Boy Scouts of America
((Creation News, Vol19, No 2, 2005)
The identity of the school is being kept secret, supposedly to protect
staff and pupils from intrusion by journalists. This of course also
protects the creationists from protests by parents and deprives
parents of an opportunity to withdraw their children from his classes.
It may well also help to keep the education authority out of the
affair. One can only wonder whether their involvement with pupils will
be at a level requiring police vetting - which may well be impossible
with foreigners visiting in under three weeks' time."
TIA
Brian
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529
ukantic
Re: Letter to Guardian - please comment
18/04/2006 21:37:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sending the following letter to the Guardian. I'd welcome any
> comments before I email it.
>
> "Creationists and pupils.
>
> Dear Sir,
> You report (18.4.2006) that creationist John Mackay will be
visiting
> church halls and chapels, but not pulpits, to spread his biblical
> literalist ideas. It would be just a prelude to the silly season,
but
> for one omission: he may not be visiting pulpits, but he will be
> visiting pupils - and in full measure. His campaign's internal
> publicity material indicates that he and his international group of
> acolytes will be visiting at least one state school in or near
> Blackpool, for three or four days in the week 8-12 May.
>
> If Mackay's writings are anything to go by, he will be teaching
> geology in such terms as earthquakes are the result of the earth's
> groaning for the return of Christ", as he did to Boy Scouts of
America
> ((Creation News, Vol19, No 2, 2005)
>
> The identity of the school is being kept secret, supposedly to
protect
> staff and pupils from intrusion by journalists. This of course also
> protects the creationists from protests by parents and deprives
> parents of an opportunity to withdraw their children from his
classes.
> It may well also help to keep the education authority out of the
> affair. One can only wonder whether their involvement with pupils
will
> be at a level requiring police vetting - which may well be
impossible
> with foreigners visiting in under three weeks' time."
>
> TIA
>
> Brian
Hi Brian,
I have recently posted the following reply to your request over at
the NSS but I will repost it here for the information on writeboard.
I think it is much more important to be brief & to the point with
national newspapers. With this in mind, I think the first paragraph
could possibly have been a bit shorter, something along the lines
of:
"Although it is well known that the creationist John Mackay will be
visiting such venues as churches, his campaign's internal publicity
material also indicates that he and his international group of
acolytes will be visiting at least one state school in or near
Blackpool, for three days in the week 8-12 May."
For future reference what about using one of these online word
processors for tasks like this that involve a degree of
collaboration?
I created one when I wrote my recent letter to the Blackpool paper.
It's at:
http://123.writeboard.com/b40bf73a0a7cedab9/login
The password is ****** (as, "messages" are open on this forum I have
put the password into the heading of the a link to the above
writeboard into the Links section of the forum), if you want to have
a look. Go to, "quick compare", to see some final changes I made
before e-mailing it off.
Then at the very least, anyone in the group with a superior
knowledge of English (don't look at me!) would have the opportunity
to correct any spelling mistakes or grammatical errors.
Just an idea.
Alan
They said it couldn't be done, so I didn't do it.
530
Roger Stanyard
AiG/Creation Minsitries and Mackay
19/04/2006 10:24:00
Hello Alan,
I've got a big, 6,500, word report on the reasons behind the break-up
of AiG/Creation Ministries and John Mackay that I'm looking to have
posted on a web site. Are you interested in having it on Balckshadow?
I'll send it by email to peruse if you are interested.
Let me know off site by email.
Roger Stanyard
531
ukantic
We believe in ET, not ID
19/04/2006 14:26:00
We believe in ET, not ID
The tweedy academics of America have joined my battle to stop a
creationist takeover of outer space
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/comment/story/0,,1755594,00.html
Seth Shostak Tuesday April 18, 2006 The Guardian
For me, the battle over teaching creationism in US schools has become
achingly personal. Groups seeking to oust the theory of evolution from
biology class - or at least hint to students that Darwin's ideas are
suspect - are invoking my research to support their crusade. I work
with the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (Seti), an effort to
find sentient beings in space by using massively large antennas to
troll for alien radio signals. Any technologically adroit society will
be capable of broadcasting to listeners light years away. If there's
cosmic company in our galaxy, a radio antenna might just be the way to
find it.
532
Jim S
Re: We believe in ET, not ID
19/04/2006 16:05:00
Seth is part of the team responsible for the radio
programme Are We Alone? Their latest (repeated)
edition may interest some here and will be available
online to listen to or download very soon.
Link:
http://www.seti.org/site/pp.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=178892
Jim.
--- ukantic <ukantic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
---------------------------------
We believe in ET, not ID
The tweedy academics of America have joined my battle
to stop a
creationist takeover of outer space
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/comment/story/0,,1755594,00.html
Seth Shostak Tuesday April 18, 2006 The Guardian
For me, the battle over teaching creationism in US
schools has become
achingly personal. Groups seeking to oust the theory
of evolution from
biology class - or at least hint to students that
Darwin's ideas are
suspect - are invoking my research to support their
crusade. I work
with the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
(Seti), an effort to
find sentient beings in space by using massively large
antennas to
troll for alien radio signals. Any technologically
adroit society will
be capable of broadcasting to listeners light years
away. If there's
cosmic company in our galaxy, a radio antenna might
just be the way to
find it.
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533
ukantic
Site Update
20/04/2006 22:09:00
I have uploaded 2 of Roger's recent articles on John Mackay & Creation
Research/AiG & they can be accessed at:
http://www.creationism.co.uk/html/uk_creationists.html
http://www.creationism.co.uk/html/blackpool.html
Alan.
534
Dean Morrison
Melanie Phillips and Hitchens demolished ( in the States)
20/04/2006 23:55:00
I think that Melanie Phillips' and Peter Hitchens' ramblings have been brought to people's awareness somewhere else on this board ( justscience.org.uk ) .. (actually this was a 'Blackshadow' tip-of from Michael?)
If not they are comprehensively demolished by the rather delightful and very, very smart Prof Tara Smith here:
[URL=http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2006/04/post_15.php]‘Spiritual wonderlust highlights gaps in evolution claims author’[/URL]
Incidentally Tara has invited me to be a Guest poster on the 'Pandas Thumb' - - a brief and charming summary of the UK sutuation I hope.
I'm going to try to get somthing to her tomorrow - but I'm open to - brief - suggestions?
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535
ukantic
The creation of a phantom enemy
21/04/2006 00:32:00
The creation of a phantom enemy
It is the scientific establishment's own self-doubt that lies at the
root of the furore over creationism.
David Perks (20 April 06)
It seems that a new spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of
creationism. During the past week Britain's National Union of Teachers
(NUT) put forward a motion at its national conference to end state
funding of religious schools. Meanwhile, the arrival of John Mackay,
an Australian creationist, on British shores prompted a full-page
article in the Guardian (1).
http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CB025.ht
536
ukantic
Re: The creation of a phantom enemy
21/04/2006 00:42:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <ukantic@...> wrote:
>
> The creation of a phantom enemy
>
> It is the scientific establishment's own self-doubt that lies at the
> root of the furore over creationism.
>
> David Perks (20 April 06)
>
> It seems that a new spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of
> creationism. During the past week Britain's National Union of Teachers
> (NUT) put forward a motion at its national conference to end state
> funding of religious schools. Meanwhile, the arrival of John Mackay,
> an Australian creationist, on British shores prompted a full-page
> article in the Guardian (1).
>
> http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CB025.ht
< The creation of a phantom enemy (Further quote from article) >
"But whether it is young earth creationists or the followers of the
intelligent design movement, we have nothing to fear from different
views on evolution, the Big Bang or any other aspect of science. There
is a choice between science and religion. People have to make that
choice for themselves - young people don't need over-anxious
scientists to protect them from irrational views."
< Rep>
Rubbish You only have to look at America & the very high percentage
of the population that do not believe in evolution or believe in
creationism to realise immediately that people are susceptible to
irrational views.
Children are very impressionable & can be made to believe literally
anything; especially if it is from an authoritative adult such as a
teacher. Therefore, obviously children DO need protecting from
irrational views.
When a parent entrusts their child to the state educational system
they should expect their child to be taught to the highest standards &
protected from harm. Granted the odd grazed knee from the football
field or the odd flea or two; however they don't expect little Jimmy
to be blown up in chemistry lab or eaten by a lion in the animal
enclosure.
Likewise they don't expect him to come home babbling on about evil
planetary alignments, fairies, telekinesis, choleric humor, fake moon
landings, UFO visitations, big-foot, dinos lumbering around the Ark or
any other number of almost inconceivably mind-bogglingly stupid things
that you *could* teach children if so inclined.
The only question I would ask is, why why would anyone in their
right mind what to permit the teaching of total nonsense to
schoolchildren?
Are there really no standards anymore?
537
Dean Morrison
RE: Site Update
21/04/2006 00:41:00
Thanks for getting that posted Alan - allgood stuff of Roger's - if a little hard on the eye at one in the morning!
----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ukantic
Sent: 20 April 2006 22:09
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Site Update
I have uploaded 2 of Roger's recent articles on John Mackay & Creation
Research/AiG & they can be accessed at:
http://www.creationism.co.uk/html/uk_creationists.html
http://www.creationism.co.uk/html/blackpool.html
Alan.
----
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
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538
Roger Stanyard
Re: Mackay''s Flies Undone
21/04/2006 11:08:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
wrote:
>
This report appeared in today's Independent Newspaper:
Creationist descends on Britain to take debate on evolution into the
classroom
By Sarah Cassidy, Education Correspondent
Published: 21 April 2006
A leading creationist who claims to use science to prove the Bible's
version of how the Earth was made begins a controversial tour of
Britain today.
John Mackay, an Australian geologist who believes he has uncovered
fossil evidence which dismisses evolution and proves that Noah's
flood really did happen will speak at several state schools and
universities during his eight-week visit to the UK.
His visit has provoked anger among educationalists who are concerned
about what they see as an increasing focus by evangelists on children.
They fear creationism - which rejects Darwin's theory of natural
selection and insists that God created the world in six days - is
becoming an increasingly accepted view in Britain's classrooms and
lecture halls.
Mr Mackay will address meetings at St Andrews, Bangor and Northampton
universities and plans to give presentations at a number of secondary
schools, including most controversially one on the Fylde coast in
Lancashire where he will give a series of talks over three days.
The visits have already sparked controversy with teaching unions,
scientists and secular groups rushing to condemn the exposure of a
captive audience of children to his views.
It follows a statement from scientists issued by the Royal Society
arguing that creationism has no place in schools. It says pupils must
understand that scientific evidence supports the theory of evolution.
Steve Jones, the award-winning geneticist and author, argued that
suggesting that creationism and evolution be given equal weight in
education was "rather like starting genetics lectures by discussing
the theory that babies are brought by storks".
As its supporters have become more vocal, creationism has become an
increasingly contentious subject in the UK. The Archbishop of
Canterbury recently warned that creationism should not be taught in
schools, and the National Union of Teachers last week demanded new
laws to prevent the teaching of creationism in science lessons.
Organisers of the trip declined to reveal the name and exact location
of the Lancashire school on Mr Mackay's speaking tour, citing the
need to protect staff and pupils from unwelcome attention.
One worried local resident said to the Blackpool Citizen: "Why is the
location being kept secret? Why are parents, teachers and governors
not being informed? Why is a man whose background cannot be verified
being given three-day access to a secondary school?"
Keith Porteous Wood, executive director of the National Secular
Society said he was appalled that Mr Mackay would be lecturing at the
school.
"Giving a creationist three days to indoctrinate a captive audience
of pupils is verging on intellectual child abuse," he said. "Who else
but someone bent on brainwashing their pupils would invite a
creationist to... for three days without any balancing scientist?
"If I were a parent I would be calling for a new headteacher.
"Adults can make up their own minds whether they want to embrace
science or anti-science, but where children are concerned we must be
absolutely clear that creationism will not be presented to them as an
alternative to real science.
"Evolution has a mile-high stack of evidence to support it,
creationism has only wishful thinking."
Mr Mackay's organisation, Creation Research, says it "exists to seek
evidence for the biblical account of creation" and that it has
already discovered proof in the earth's crust.
Mr Mackay, who has a geology degree, has conducted digs around the
world where he has excavated fossils which he claims prove that the
Bible was literal truth.
His website argues that the theory of evolution was introduced by
Satan and that the idea has already undermined Western society and
must not be allowed to spread to the Third World.
"Satan has only recently begun introducing evolution to Third World
countries in order to destroy missionary enterprise," it
states. "Let's get in first with our spiritual armour on and provide
Third World missionaries and others with the weapons to do battle
against the subtleties of Satan as he seeks to undermine confidence
in God's Word and missionary enterprise."
Mr Mackay's trip will also include two debates with academics, who
will argue against his ideas. Jeff Ollerton, lecturer in ecology
specialising in plant evolution at Northampton University, who will
debate with Mr Mackay, said he had sympathy with those who felt that
creationists should not be given a platform, but as a scientist he
felt obliged to expose the falsity of the creationists' argument.
"My position is that anyone is allowed to believe whatever they
want," he said. "If they want to believe the earth is flat or that
it's 10,000 years old or that life was created in six days that's up
to them. But it's not just a matter of their personal beliefs. They
are people who are trying to influence government policy and
influence the school curriculum."
Randall Hardy, Mr Mackay's spokesman in the UK, expressed dismay that
leading critics of creationism, such as the zoologist Richard
Dawkins, had refused invitations to debate the issue.
"These people are not just scientists, they are atheists," he
said. "Their arguments do not come from pure science but from their
interpretation of the evidence in order to back their beliefs."
A science teacher who claims that fossils back the Bible
John Mackay converted to Christianity when he was an undergraduate at
the University of Queensland.
His UK spokesman, Randall Hardy, says: "He was converted by reading a
book on geology written by an atheist which made particular fun of
the biblical position. From this, he started reading the Bible and
was totally convinced by it."
Mr Mackay, who is in his late 50s, taught science in state and
private schools in Queensland as well as lecturing in geology to
higher education students at technical colleges.
He was a founder of Creation Science Foundation in Brisbane and a
director of CSF until 1987 when he resigned and established his own
creationist organisation, Creation Research, also based in Brisbane.
His organisation is not linked to any denomination and is funded
solely by public donations.
For more than 30 years Mr Mackay has travelled the world excavating
fossils on digs in the US, Britain, Europe, the Caribbean, New
Zealand, Australia, Pacific islands and Asia. The expeditions were
looking for evidence for creation, Noah's flood and the Tower of
Babel.
He believes he and his supporters have discovered evidence that
proves that these were real events rather than biblical allegories.
Mr Mackay has just finished tours of Canada and the US.
Answering the big questions
1 HOW DID LIFE ON EARTH DEVELOP?
Creationists say:
Refer to Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and
the earth". Creationists believe that the Bible is the literal truth
and the written word of God. They believe the account of origins
presented in Genesis is a simple but factual presentation of actual
events. Thus they believe that the world was created in six days by
God.
Evolutionists say:
All life on earth originated by natural processes, which can be
explained by science, and that all speciesdeveloped from simpler
forms by natural selection. Evolution is a change in traits of living
organisms over generations. The modern understanding of evolution is
based on the theory of natural selection, set out in 1859 by Charles
Darwin, above, in The Origin of Species, .
2 HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?
Creationists say:
If you add up the dates in Genesis, Adam was created between 6,000
and 10,000 years ago. Hence the Earth is between 6,000 and 10,000
years old.
Evolutionists say:
The whole universe and life itself arose by chance billions of years
ago. The Big Bang theory is the dominant scientific theory about the
origin of the universe, which claims the universe was created between
10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion.
3 WHAT DO FOSSILS TELL US?
Creationists say:
The fossil record provides no proof of the evolution of different
species. There is a continuing lack of evidence for evolution despite
an enormous number of fossils.
Evolutionists say:
Fossil evidence supports the common descent hypothesis: that
different species have developed from a common root. The fossil
record allows us to trace the history of a species showing how it has
changed over time.
A leading creationist who claims to use science to prove the Bible's
version of how the Earth was made begins a controversial tour of
Britain today.
John Mackay, an Australian geologist who believes he has uncovered
fossil evidence which dismisses evolution and proves that Noah's
flood really did happen will speak at several state schools and
universities during his eight-week visit to the UK.
His visit has provoked anger among educationalists who are concerned
