3451
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 10:27:00
> Ian, I am lost on this; what is the user details/user lst? Do you want a
list of the email addresses or IDs or both of all the current Yahoo
blackshadow members?
Sorry Roger, trying to keep the geek stuff to a minimum ;)
If you log into the yahoo Group's web interface, then click on the following
link:
http://groups.yahoo.comhttp://members?download=true&group=sub
It will generate a CSV file, which contains the user names and email
addresses.
Email this to me, and I'll do the rest.
Everyone should then get a "signup" message explaining what to do from
there.
We will have a bit of running around behind folks setting up groups and so
on, then we are set.
Ian.
3452
Roger Stanyard
Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 10:45:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> > Ian, I am lost on this; what is the user details/user lst? Do
you want a
> list of the email addresses or IDs or both of all the current Yahoo
> blackshadow members?
>
> Sorry Roger, trying to keep the geek stuff to a minimum ;)
>
> If you log into the yahoo Group's web interface, then click on the
following
> link:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.comhttp://members?
download=true&group=sub
>
> It will generate a CSV file, which contains the user names and email
> addresses.
The file has been sent to you off site, Ian.
Roger
>
> Email this to me, and I'll do the rest.
>
> Everyone should then get a "signup" message explaining what to do
from
> there.
>
> We will have a bit of running around behind folks setting up groups
and so
> on, then we are set.
>
> Ian.
>
3453
oeditor
Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 10:59:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
I think Brian has been looking at McIntosh's work
> on Chinese floods.
Not exactly - the Chinese reference is to his belief (and DVD) that
evidence for the Tower of Babel can be found in Chinese ideograms!
However, he does have quite a bit to say about floods, eg
" Furthermore the science of a worldwide Flood is completely
consistent with the fossil record. Right through the fossil record are
fossils of both extinct creatures and those like today, sometimes in
the same strata. The fish found in the old red sandstone of Scotland
were not so different to fish today. Some were exactly the same as
those today. The sedimentary geology of Scotland and around the world
bears testimony to the geological power not 'of the vestiges of an
antique past' but of recent events 4,500 years ago. Indeed some strata
can only be explained by catastrophic deposition. For instance the
coal seams all over the world, in places miles thick, are formed from
vegetation, but the high rank coal that is often found in these seams
can only be explained by catastrophic deposition, since high rank coal
needs oxygen exclusion of the vegetation that would otherwise only
form a low grade peat. Other evidence of polystrate fossil trees
unning right across strata again indicate rapid deposition and burial
- all consistent with a worldwide Flood and which we have no excuse
not to believe in. The rocks all around us testify to this, and we do
well to heed, for God states (2 Peter 3) that the same Word that
brought in the ferocity of worldwide judgement at the flood, will
usher in the last days when every knee shall bow before the Creator
and Judge - none other than our Saviour in all His glory."
http://www.wasdarwinright.net/sixdays.htm"
I have a few more links connecting him with flood theology, two of
which show dissent among the cretinists:
"In their peer-reviewed article ‘Flood models: the need for an
integrated approach’, Andy McIntosh, Tom Edmonson and Steven Taylor
concluded that ‘only as there is greater interaction between the
relevant scientific disciplines will some of the unanswered problems
of the biblical Flood models be solved’."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i3/flood_models.asp
"However, according to the Bible, God created all air/flying creatures
(Hebrew ôph) on Day 5 of Creation Week, while land creatures were
created on Day 6. This is a problem for progressive creationists such
as Hugh Ross, who believe in the evolutionary timescale and order of
events, because this places land creatures before air creatures. But
using the Bible to interpret the fossil record, we realize that the
order does not reflect a sequence of ages, but the sequence of burial
by Noah’s Flood.3 The more mobile birds avoided the floodwaters longer."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v26/i1/planes.asp
> How about pointing out that the nutters can't
> agree with each other over their creation science. The AiGers in TiS
> think the BCSers are "compromisers".
v.sup.
I can post a couple more snippets if anyone wants them, but I think
this post is long enough now. Over to the experts!
Brian
3454
oeditor
Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 11:23:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> "In their peer-reviewed article ‘Flood models: the need for an
> integrated approach’, Andy McIntosh, Tom Edmonson and Steven Taylor
> concluded that ‘only as there is greater interaction between the
> relevant scientific disciplines will some of the unanswered problems
> of the biblical Flood models be solved’."
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i3/flood_models.asp
>
Sorry, I pasted that bit to show connections with flood theology, not
squabbles. It goes on with a long rebuttal of McIntosh's article
("peer reviewed" btw by other cretinists) and ends:
"None of us is satisfied with the model that we proposed in 1996. In
the light of the problems encountered, our thinking has moved on,
albeit not in a direction that McIntosh et al. would approve of. On
the other hand, we remain convinced that Genesis preserves a
trustworthy historical record of a global Flood.
Paul Garner
Michael Garton
Steven Robinson
David Tyler"
Brian
3455
jbs13uk
SJS forum missing
07/10/2006 11:54:00
Clicking on any of the forum subsections brings up a 404. What's
happened mods? Is there an upgrade in progress?
3456
Roger Stanyard
Re: SJS forum missing
07/10/2006 12:12:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@...> wrote:
>
> Clicking on any of the forum subsections brings up a 404. What's
> happened mods? Is there an upgrade in progress?
Dunno JBS; it was working up until 8 am this morning and then started
with the 404 stuff. I haven't contacted SJS yet to see what is going on.
Roger
>
3457
oeditor
Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 14:18:00
Here's mine:
Sir,
Professor Andy McIntosh (letters 7 Oct) is being disingenuous.
Although some people see a conflict between science and faith,
mainstream Christianity is comfortable with science in general and
evolution in particular. The conflict is between science and the
biblical literalism promoted by the professor and his associates. In
numerous public utterances they have made it clear that they firmly
believe in the cult of Young Earth Creationism (YEC). That is, that
the universe was created 6,000 years ago in its present form. All
their "science" is selected and distorted in support of that idea. YEC
believers claim for instance that the speed of light has fallen
dramatically over the past 6000 years and that radiometric dating is
completely flawed. They also claim that the Grand Canyon was carved
out by Noah's flood. They hate evolution, because it clearly cannot
have come about in a mere 6000 years. They also see acceptance of
evolution as causing the spread of atheism - which they in turn blame
for the ills of society.
Their professed acceptance of "Intelligent Design" is a smokescreen to
hide their creationism and get it into science classes. This was tried
in the USA, and failed in the courts there. It must fail here - in the
court of reason.
Brian
3458
Lenny Flank
Re: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 14:12:00
> Are there any other groups we should be approaching.? What about
> Panda's Thumb?
There are indeed several Brits at the Thumb.
> What about NCSE? I don't see why we shouldn't call on
> the entire anti-creationist movement on ths one.
NCSE will *not* like the openly atheist tone of this group.
Be prepared for some harsh criticism. Just a friendly warning.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
3459
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 15:53:00
On 07/10/06, Lenny Flank <lflank@ij.net> wrote:
>
> > Are there any other groups we should be approaching.? What about
> > Panda's Thumb?
>
> There are indeed several Brits at the Thumb.
>
> > What about NCSE? I don't see why we shouldn't call on
> > the entire anti-creationist movement on ths one.
>
> NCSE will *not* like the openly atheist tone of this group.
>
> Be prepared for some harsh criticism. Just a friendly warning.
Well, this is the point of building an umbrella organisation and
coalition. Each organisation within a coalition has its own set of
values and its own specific objectives. This is what makes it
possible for them to draw their own members and bring together more
people. But there are different levels to the coalition, and they
present different interfaces to the world for interacting with other
organisations. And the broader, more high level the organisation - in
this case, the umbrella organisation, limits itself to those abstract
values which all of the subsumed organisations share.
Now we may have our differences, for example, in terms of of our
specific views of "reason" and what exactly it implies, but I believe
we would would all agree that reason is not possible without freedom
of thought. One cannot force someone to think, and one cannot force
someone to believe that which they do not believe without rendering
forcing them to give up their autonomy. Moreover, we would all agree
that reason is essential to science, which is a value which we also
share. So while we may have our differences in terms of what we think
reason implies or differences in terms of the specifics, there is
nevertheless a great deal that we have in common, and I believe that
it is safe to say that we share reason as a common value.
But there are others.
At the very least, I would say that we share the following:
Science, Education, Reason, Pluralism and Freedom.
These are values which BCSE itself may uphold without contradicting
the values of any of the organisations which it subsumes. These are
values which the BCSE can emphasis when dealing with the NCSE or
Panda's Thumb, or for that matter, any organisation which builds its
own approach upon some sort of Gouldian Separate Magisteria. And if
any organisation has any difficulty with any of the organisations
which are included under the umbrella, we will tell them that we stand
for Freedom of Thought. If they have a problem with that, then I
doubt that they are someone we would wish to do business with, anyway.
When advocating a particular philosophy or worldview, one advocates it
within the context of a free society where people may choose to adopt
it or not. And when speaking with to audiences who may not share all
of your values, you simply emphasise the values which you do hold in
common, establishing a basis for communication and cooperation.
--
Helping to Keep Science Scientific
BCSE - http://www.blackshadow.co.uk
3460
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 16:27:00
Tim, Lenny, I have been in contact with the deputy director of the NCSE.
I believe I have a trusting working relationship with him per say. I
already wrote to Glenn Branch earlier this morning regarding the BCSE.
Given this and that I have seen and participated in making the rules of
the new forum, which we will be switching over to in the coming days, I
do not see a clash or much of a rejection developing from NCSE's
perspective.
3461
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 16:40:00
A couple of things, Tim and Lenny. I have corresponded with the deputy
director of the NCSE on a few occasions previously and he reasonably
trusts me and knows my anti-creationist work. I contacted him this
morning re the BCSE.
Secondly, given that I have seen the forthcoming forum and have been
involved in setting up the ground rules for it, I am confident that the
NCSE will not see it as problematic.
3462
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 16:35:00
On 07/10/06, Timothy Chase <timothychase@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, this is the point of building an umbrella organisation and
> coalition....
Sorry. That bit could have used some polish. Either that or a few
more minutes of daylight. But you get the gist.
--
Helping to Keep Science Scientific
BCSE - http://www.blackshadow.co.uk
3463
Roger Stanyard
Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 18:00:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
<timothychase@...> wrote:
>
> On 07/10/06, Lenny Flank <lflank@...> wrote:
> >
>
> At the very least, I would say that we share the following:
>
> Science, Education, Reason, Pluralism and Freedom.
>
I like this idea a lot. I would draft it to include the word
Democracy. That seems to me exceedingly important because we need to
play on the fact that so many fundies are essentially authoritarian
and undemocratic in nature. I am doing a lot of work on the Chalcedon
Foundation at the moment and the term dictatorship keeps ringing in
my ears.
The second reason I like the idea is that it shows we are for
something, rather than just being negatively against something. "Anti-
creationism" doesn't really have much of a ring to it!
What Tim has done here is almost set up an Aunt Sally for us. At the
extreme the fundies hate public education, reason, pluralism, freedom
and democracy, let alone science. We can knock them down!
Lenny told us months ago to show, at every available opportunity,.
the world the extremism amongst the fundies. By setting those as our
ideals, we have a reference point.
And I guess that the ideals are exactly what all of us believe, in
common, in this group.
Does anyone in the group not believe in these things?
3464
jbs13uk
BBC4''s line up tonight (Sat7Oct06)
07/10/2006 18:13:00
Anyone with Freeview or Sky may be interested in tonight's programmes
on BBC4 which has several hours of Darwin-related television (starting
at 7.40pm).
3465
Ian Lowe
Everyone should just have had Email..
07/10/2006 18:13:00
From the new forum.
Everyone's accounts are created, *however* the email which is sent out with
your new Username and password has not been sent.
Bear with me, I'm working on this.
It would be helpful if folks don't try to sign in *just* yet.
Ian.
3466
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: New poll for BlackShadow
07/10/2006 18:18:00
On 06/10/06, Ian Lowe <ian@scottishatheistcouncil.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >Separate sections, separate subsections. Pluralism in action. Something
> for the secularists, something for the religious, and something for those
> who don't mind mixing it up a bit. I think it would be enjoyable. But
> there should also be a main section where all of that baggage can be left
> behind. A place where we can set aside our differences, organise and share
> information.
>
> You are going to love this ;)
>
> Almost ready. Just need to get the userlist from the Yahoo group, create
> eveyrone's account, and we should be done.
This is going to be sweet!
It will really help with getting local organisations going, too. They
might begin simply by posting little more than the times to meet in a
local pub or what they are about, and we can add them on like pearls
on a string. Modular - with a resource which is immediately available
for getting an organisation or chapter up running - right away!
--
Helping to Keep Science Scientific
BCSE - http://www.blackshadow.co.uk
3467
oeditor
Re: BBC4''s line up tonight (Sat7Oct06)
07/10/2006 18:44:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone with Freeview or Sky may be interested in tonight's programmes
> on BBC4 which has several hours of Darwin-related television (starting
> at 7.40pm).
>
Including a repeat of the Mark Steel Lecture on Darwin at 11:10,
repeated at 2:45 Sunday morning.
Well worth recording.
Brian
3468
roythearle
Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 20:20:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
> Oh dear, the nutters just walked straight into it.
>
> Putty in our hands...
>
> The biggets wanker in Britain, my bete noire, a welder, has set
> himself up for me.
I think we should start by asking why he hasn't mentioned that he has
any connection with TiS...
Roy
3469
roythearle
SJS is penetrated up
07/10/2006 20:27:00
On the off chance that some of the SJS admins frequent this feculent
laystall, I'd like to point out that all the links on the furom now
point to http://justscience.4.forumer.com instead of
http://justscience.1.forumer.com and so every link pressed gives an
error...
Roy
3470
roythearle
Re: SJS forum missing
07/10/2006 20:35:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "jbs13uk" <jbs13uk@...> wrote:
>
> Clicking on any of the forum subsections brings up a 404. What's
> happened mods? Is there an upgrade in progress?
>
It looks like the mechanism that services links is inserting the wrong
forum number in them - 4 instead of 1 - and unfortunately forum "4
doesn't exist. You can access the pages if you want by copying the
link and manually replacing '4' with '1' - but you'll find it hard to
reply to anything since that isn't done via a simple link.
Roy
3471
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 20:49:00
On 07/10/06, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@uclmail.net> wrote:
>
> A couple of things, Tim and Lenny. I have corresponded with the deputy
> director of the NCSE on a few occasions previously and he reasonably
> trusts me and knows my anti-creationist work. I contacted him this
> morning re the BCSE.
>
> Secondly, given that I have seen the forthcoming forum and have been
> involved in setting up the ground rules for it, I am confident that the
> NCSE will not see it as problematic.
This morning? You do like to work fast...
Yes, I figure by keeping the BCSE abstract and leaving the concretes
to the individual organisations, there just wouldn't be any problem.
However, it is great to hear that you have already looked into this.
It looks like networking is already working for us in a rather major way...
Thank you for the good news!
--
Helping to Keep Science Scientific
BCSE - http://www.blackshadow.co.uk
3472
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: More letters in the Times
07/10/2006 20:39:00
On 07/10/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
> <timothychase@...> wrote:
> >
> > On 07/10/06, Lenny Flank <lflank@...> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > At the very least, I would say that we share the following:
> >
> > Science, Education, Reason, Pluralism and Freedom.
> >
> I like this idea a lot. I would draft it to include the word
> Democracy. That seems to me exceedingly important because we need to
> play on the fact that so many fundies are essentially authoritarian
> and undemocratic in nature. I am doing a lot of work on the Chalcedon
> Foundation at the moment and the term dictatorship keeps ringing in
> my ears.
Yes, I would add democracy as well.
Then there are three values regarding how the individual relates to
the world: Science, Education and Reason. Likewise, there are three
values regarding how individuals should relate to one-another.
Pluralism is of particular importance to me - as I think we lost sight
of it for a bit. Democracy is important as well, but I consider it to
be primarily the means to an end, with its end being that of the
preservation of freedom. Finally, freedom is what leaves each
individual free to think for themselves, to speak for themselves, and
to determine their own associates.
> ...
> The second reason I like the idea is that it shows we are for
> something, rather than just being negatively against something. "Anti-
> creationism" doesn't really have much of a ring to it!
>
> What Tim has done here is almost set up an Aunt Sally for us. At the
> extreme the fundies hate public education, reason, pluralism, freedom
> and democracy, let alone science. We can knock them down!
>
> Lenny told us months ago to show, at every available opportunity,.
> the world the extremism amongst the fundies. By setting those as our
> ideals, we have a reference point.
"Aunt Sally"?
An easy target. And here all I could think of was Sally Mae and my
student loans!
But yes, that was a very large part of the idea. These are of course
values which I personally cherish, but they also essentialise what the
Fundamentalists are opposed to, and are values which virtually
everyone else in a free society share - even when different
individuals might disagree about the particulars, for example, whether
democracy should be representative or direct.
At the very least, this will give us talking points and touch stones
for our criticism of the Fundamentalists and for the identification of
the threat which they pose to civilised society. Moreover, it would
be something which new organisations could start off with and modify
as they see fit.
--
Helping to Keep Science Scientific
BCSE - http://www.blackshadow.co.uk
3473
Ian Lowe
RE: Everyone should just have had Email..
07/10/2006 21:07:00
Okay folks, the new forums are live. Come on in.
http://bcseweb.org.uk/forums
Don't mind the blank front page, we'll get that patched up asap.
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ian Lowe
Sent: 07 October 2006 18:13
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Everyone should just have had Email..
From the new forum.
Everyone's accounts are created, *however* the email which is sent out with
your new Username and password has not been sent.
Bear with me, I'm working on this.
It would be helpful if folks don't try to sign in *just* yet.
Ian.
3474
Mikey Brass
Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
07/10/2006 21:14:00
Ian Lowe wrote:
> Okay folks, the new forums are live. Come on in.
>
> http://bcseweb.org.uk/forums
Not Found
The requested URL /forums was not found on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use
an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
3475
Ian Lowe
RE: Everyone should just have had Email..
07/10/2006 21:32:00
Damn, Damn, Damn.
It's http://bcseweb.org.uk/forum
Forum, singular :)
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Mikey Brass
Sent: 07 October 2006 21:15
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Everyone should just have had Email..
Ian Lowe wrote:
> Okay folks, the new forums are live. Come on in.
>
> http://bcseweb.org.uk/forums
Not Found
The requested URL /forums was not found on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an
ErrorDocument to handle the request.
3476
Mikey Brass
Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
07/10/2006 21:20:00
The url is http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/forum/
3477
Roger Stanyard
Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
08/10/2006 08:00:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Damn, Damn, Damn.
>
> It's http://bcseweb.org.uk/forum
>
> Forum, singular :)
>
> Ian.
>
Ian has done an astonishingly good job in setting up our new forum.
He has worked very quickly and it addresses the organisational
problems we identified last week.
Moreover, the whole set up looks much, much, more professional and
attractive that the Yahoo forum.
We all owe Ian a round of thanks.
Mikey also was involved and he also deserves our thanks.
Roger
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
[BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Mikey Brass
> Sent: 07 October 2006 21:15
> To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Everyone should just have had Email..
>
> Ian Lowe wrote:
> > Okay folks, the new forums are live. Come on in.
> >
> > http://bcseweb.org.uk/forums
>
> Not Found
> The requested URL /forums was not found on this server.
>
> Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to
use an
> ErrorDocument to handle the request.
>
3478
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
08/10/2006 10:14:00
>Ian has done an astonishingly good job in setting up our new forum.
>He has worked very quickly and it addresses the organisational problems we
identified last week.
>Moreover, the whole set up looks much, much, more professional and
attractive that the Yahoo forum.
>We all owe Ian a round of thanks.
>Mikey also was involved and he also deserves our thanks.
Thanks for the kind words Roger (and others!)
The key things are now to use this resource properly - we can allow/invite
people like Nick Cowan in, debate (and extract information), we can
ameliortate the whole "atheist v christian" thing by having clear zones for
certain types of discussion and debate.
I would urge people to remember to help the moderators of the new forum as
they find their feet. Don't spam things in the wrong place, take the time to
figure out what's best for each area. If a moderator moves your post to the
"right" forum, don't argue publically, use the "private Message" (PM)
facility to talk to the mods directly.
Alan has also indicated that we will be moving the Wiki across to the new
website (nothing else will change, just the Web Address). Remember that
those folks who have been ediitng the wiki will need to continue to do so -
and remember that "good bits" ftom the discussions in the forum will have to
be gleaned and crystalised into the web content.
I'll continue to assist as far as I can in getting things up and running, as
the new moderators get used to things.
It's an opportunity to draw a line under the divisions of previous
weeks/months and find a more comfortable working relationship. They say good
fences make good neighbours - let's hope that the "fences" between different
discussion areas help everyone to feel that they can express themselves
without causing too much offence to others.
Ian
Ps> be forgiving in this first couple of weeks - we will probably end up
moving stuff around and changing settings as we polish things off.
PPS> We need to change the "PHPBB" logo in the top left. IF we have a BCSE
logo (even a working one), let me know and I'll get it in place.
3479
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
08/10/2006 11:03:00
Ian Lowe wrote:
> The key things are now to use this resource properly
I will no longer be posting on BlackShadow, rather only on the forum.
The Blackshadow list should be closed, imo, by the end of the coming week.
> - we can allow/invite
> people like Nick Cowan in, debate (and extract information),
Indeed we should.
An announcement on DC should get Cowan's attention.
Furthermore, I'd like to elaborate on another point: the way Ian, Brian,
myself, Roger have worked together to varying degrees demonstrates the
level of co-operation and mutual respect that can be gained and utilised
for our goal of keeping creationism out of the science classroom.
3480
Dave Challender
Re: Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
08/10/2006 12:17:00
On 10/8/06, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@uclmail.net> wrote: ->
Ian Lowe wrote:
> The key things are now to use this resource properly
I will no longer be posting on BlackShadow, rather only on the forum.
The Blackshadow list should be closed, imo, by the end of the coming week.
It depends if forum posts can be emailed - be it in full or periodic
mails to say, in summary,what has been posted to the forum..
Many people prefer mailing lists to visiting websites, they can easily
search, filter and organise mails and, more importantly, they see new
posts and are reminded of those mailing lists.
Visiting a web site is affected by peoples inertia - someone may check
mail several times a week (or more) but not visit a website that often.
--
Regards
Dave
3481
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
08/10/2006 12:27:00
Dave Challender wrote:
> It depends if forum posts can be emailed - be it in full or periodic
> mails to say, in summary,what has been posted to the forum..
See Ian's recent posts in this regard. I, for example, have subscribed
my profile to receive all forum posts by e-mail.
3482
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
08/10/2006 12:42:00
HI Dave - the new forum is not just a web forum - it is *also* a set of mailing lists.
so, as an example, you can log into the http://bcseweb.org.uk/forum site and visit the "freeforall" forum - see the new posts, reply, post a new topic, whatever.
*but* if you use the "forum subscription" feature, then you can send an email to freeforall@bcseweb.org.uk, and similarly post a new topic, reply to an existing one etc. once you do this, any new posts to the freeforall forum will be delivered to your inbox, with [BCSE FreeForAll] in the subject line, just like a Yahoo Group.
If you are an email person, you have to visit the Web based forum *once* in order to set up your email preferences, after that, you can use the mailing lists (there are a few of them) and don't ever have to visit the forum.
Also, it's not a *choice* - you can use both as you wish, visiting the website when it suits, or using email when you prefer.
Hopefully, you wil find the new system to be just about perfect in terms of being friendly for both email and web users. It takes away the whole "forum OR mailing list" debate.
Ian.
----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Challender
Sent: 08 October 2006 12:18
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re: Everyone should just have had Email..
On 10/8/06, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@uclmail.net> wrote:
->Ian Lowe wrote:
> The key things are now to use this resource properly
I will no longer be posting on BlackShadow, rather only on the forum.
The Blackshadow list should be closed, imo, by the end of the coming week.
It depends if forum posts can be emailed - be it in full or periodic mails to say, in summary,what has been posted to the forum..
Many people prefer mailing lists to visiting websites, they can easily search, filter and organise mails and, more importantly, they see new posts and are reminded of those mailing lists.
Visiting a web site is affected by peoples inertia - someone may check mail several times a week (or more) but not visit a website that often.
--
Regards
Dave
3483
Ian Lowe
One Last Post...
08/10/2006 13:22:00
Yep, I'm moving across to the new forum. Initial build/testing is all done,
and it seems pretty robust, so I'm done here. If anyone is having
difficulties getting going, mail me directly for assistance.
I'd suggest that we close off the Yahoo group in the next few days to new
posts, and change it's text to point at the new address for the
website/forum.
See you all there!
Ian.
3484
Roger Stanyard
Blackshadow web site
08/10/2006 18:48:00
On slight problem I have this evening is that I can't edit our web site
at www.blackshadow.me.uk. It just won't allow me. Any ideas?
Roger
3485
Ian Lowe
RE: Blackshadow web site
08/10/2006 18:56:00
Alan has moved the site to the new address Roger:
http://bcseweb.org.uk
Same details as before (in fact, should be the same everything as before!)
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Roger Stanyard
Sent: 08 October 2006 18:48
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Blackshadow web site
On slight problem I have this evening is that I can't edit our web site at
www.blackshadow.me.uk. It just won't allow me. Any ideas?
Roger
3486
ukantic
Re: Blackshadow web site
08/10/2006 20:49:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Alan has moved the site to the new address Roger:
>
> http://bcseweb.org.uk
>
> Same details as before (in fact, should be the same everything as
before!)
>
> Ian.
>
That's right Roger, you can view it from BS, but it is only redirected
onto the new location, which obviously (as in I observe) affects
functions such as edit. Don't worry about the counter at present; it's
awkward to set up (see the many comments at PM wiki) & I will have
another go when I have a bit more time.
Roger, there is talk of closing down the forum shortly. Although I
agree we no longer need to use it, I suggest leaving it as it is for
the time being. There are all sorts of bits & pieces of interest to me
on here & there is no rush.
Thanks Alan.
3487
Roger Stanyard
Re: Blackshadow web site
08/10/2006 22:38:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Alan has moved the site to the new address Roger:
>
> http://bcseweb.org.uk
>
> Same details as before (in fact, should be the same everything as
before!)
>
> Ian.
yep, but I can't edit it under either the new domain name or the old
domain name.
Roger
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
[BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Roger Stanyard
> Sent: 08 October 2006 18:48
> To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BlackShadow] Blackshadow web site
>
> On slight problem I have this evening is that I can't edit our web
site at
> www.blackshadow.me.uk. It just won't allow me. Any ideas?
>
> Roger
>
3488
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: Blackshadow web site
08/10/2006 22:53:00
> yep, but I can't edit it under either the new domain name or the old
domain name.
>
> Roger
Well, let's take this over to the new forum.
Basically, Alan will have to fix this one up (although I can probably help)
- I have never used the PMWiki software.
I.
3489
Dave Oldridge
Re: Re: Domain stuff, webhosting etc..
09/10/2006 04:56:00
On 6 Oct 2006 at 0:59, oeditor wrote:
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > This is England we're talking about, not some red state (is
> that the
> > > right colour? Sounds odd.) in the USA. Here, the *vast*
> majority of
> > > people (not just the less-than-half figures bandied about)
> don't give
> > > a toss about religion.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then you have nothing to worry about from creationists, right
> . . . ?
> Well, I'm beginning to wonder, actually. It could be that
> science
> education is being run down quickly enough without needing any
> help
> from the nutters. (Don't ask, it would only start another
> unwanted
> thread/)
> >
> > Underestimating your enemy is a very bad thing to do. As is
> > overestimating your own strength.
> >
> > I know how the fundies fight. I've watched it firsthand for
> 20
> > years. And your fundies are no different. In fact, your
> fundies
> ARE > our fundies. The ones who "don't give a toss about
> religion"
> WILL > give a toss, very quickly, if they think people are
> trying to
> stamp > out religion.
>
> Lenny, you just don't get it (to coin a phrase): they *wont*.
> "New
> Labour", with the connivance of other parties, has got away
> with
> murder. So letting religious maniacs into the schools is very
> small
> beer to most parents. They're used to having to go to nativity
> plays
> in red hats so their offspring know they're there. But it's no
> different from morris dancing or well-dressing. A quaint
> antidiluvian
> custom. Mother goes home and has a cup of tea, waits for child,
> and
> says "Yes dear, I'm sure they didn't notice the mess I made of
> your
> shepherd's outfit - oh, sorry, were you supposed to be a king?
> Well,
> never mind. I'm sure Father Christmas will understand."
>
> What matters is explaining to parents that there are people,
> encouraged by Blair, who are determined to undermine their
> children's education. That they are doing it in order to
> enforce their religious beliefs. It's a religious attack on
> rationality. It may be the front line, but it's just part of the
> war. We were winning, until your lot appeared. And if 20 years
> haven't seen them driven off in your country, then perhaps its
> time for a fresh approach in ours.
They are much harder to drive off in the USA because that's where
they are coming from in the first place. During the 19th
century, the US's expanding frontier spawned a number of radical
cults, several of which insisted on the literal inerrancy of
scripture (a radical doctrine not actually taught by the Church
in any of its incarnations).
But broadband attacks on religion for the sake of attacking
religion will not repel this beast. It's moving in on your
territory and its proponents have a lot of practice in the
American, Canadian, Australian, Turkish and other markets for
their codswallop. Simply branding all religions as false makes
you exactly what the creationists SAY you are.
--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667
VA7CZ
3490
oeditor
Re: Domain stuff, webhosting etc..
09/10/2006 09:54:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Dave Oldridge <doldridg@...> wrote:
>
Simply branding all religions as false makes
> you exactly what the creationists SAY you are.
>
Which is? Responsible for the perceived moral decay of the West? The
Antichrist? Do tell!
Brian
3491
Roger Stanyard
Closing Down the Blackshadow forum
09/10/2006 11:16:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <alan@...> wrote:
>
>
> Roger, there is talk of closing down the forum shortly. Although I
> agree we no longer need to use it, I suggest leaving it as it is for
> the time being. There are all sorts of bits & pieces of interest to me
> on here & there is no rush.
>
> Thanks Alan.
It think all email traffic should now use our new BCSE forum.
However, the Blackshadow forum is, as Alan says, still a very useful
mine of information. I have used it heavily for researching material to
include in our web site. My research goes back to the initial postings
of getting on for two years ago.
Moreover the Blackshadow forum is, in effect, the minutes of the group
discussions on how we go about setting up and developing BCSE. I think
it is essential to maintain those minutes for a very long time. We need
to refer back to them.
Therefore I propose that we close the Blackshadow forum to all new
traffic but retain it for at least a year as a reference source.
The only issue then is when we close it for all new email traffic.
Mikey has suggested a week.
I propose slightly longer. Some members may be on holiday and are
unaware of the changes we made over the weekend. I thinks that suggests
at least a fortnight to keep the site open for new traffic.
Moreover we have quite a high number of passive, non-posting, members
who may only dip into the group occasionally. They may have ignored or
just overlooked the emails we have sent to them about the changes.
My suggestion therefore is that we keep Balckshadow open for four weeks
but every time someone posts in it, we put up a reminder about the
changes. I'll handle that.
As for my own position, I hope that this is the last message I post to
Blackshadow apart from reminders.
So please reply to this post on our new BCSE forum.
Roger
3492
Dave Oldridge
Re: Re: Domain stuff, webhosting etc..
09/10/2006 17:27:00
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Dave Oldridge <doldridg@...>
> wrote:
> >
> Simply branding all religions as false makes
> > you exactly what the creationists SAY you are.
> >
> Which is? Responsible for the perceived moral decay of the
> West? The Antichrist? Do tell!
The BIG creationist lie is that evolution=atheism. Thus teaching
evolution is teaching atheism (according to them).
If you tell them that they are correct, they will thank you and
continue to teach the lie. They will continue to teach it
anyway, but if you create an environment where it is exposed
often enough, they will make themselves look like asses doing it.
3493
ukantic
Re: Blackshadow web site
09/10/2006 17:30:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@> wrote:
> >
> > Alan has moved the site to the new address Roger:
> >
> > http://bcseweb.org.uk
> >
> > Same details as before (in fact, should be the same everything as
> before!)
> >
> > Ian.
>
> yep, but I can't edit it under either the new domain name or the old
> domain name.
>
> Roger
Strange, it was definitely working before. Will sort it out tonight.
Alan.
3494
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: Blackshadow web site
09/10/2006 19:46:00
On 09/10/06, ukantic <alan@blackshadow.me.uk> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
> >
> > yep, but I can't edit it under either the new domain name or the old
> > domain name.
> >
> > Roger
>
> Strange, it was definitely working before. Will sort it out tonight.
>
> Alan.
Looks like you have it working again, Alan.
Great to have the whole thing together in one place!
I suggest updating the footers to the new address - for anyone who is
using them.
--
British Centre for Science Education
Helping to Keep Science Scientific
BCSE - http://bcseweb.org.uk
3495
Roger Stanyard
Re: Blackshadow web site
09/10/2006 21:18:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <alan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Alan has moved the site to the new address Roger:
> > >
> > > http://bcseweb.org.uk
> > >
> > > Same details as before (in fact, should be the same everything
as
> > before!)
> > >
> > > Ian.
> >
> > yep, but I can't edit it under either the new domain name or the
old
> > domain name.
> >
> > Roger
>
> Strange, it was definitely working before. Will sort it out tonight.
>
> Alan.
>
Thanks Alan.
I dunno what you did but it's working again.
Roger
3496
ukantic
Re: Blackshadow web site
09/10/2006 22:14:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase" <timothychase@...>
wrote:
>
> On 09/10/06, ukantic <alan@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > yep, but I can't edit it under either the new domain name or the old
> > > domain name.
> > >
> > > Roger
> >
> > Strange, it was definitely working before. Will sort it out tonight.
> >
> > Alan.
>
> Looks like you have it working again, Alan.
>
> Great to have the whole thing together in one place!
Thanks Timothy,
I had it working yesterday, but then created a problem editing the
site by removing what I thought was a superfluous file containing PM
wiki stuff.
Anyway I have replaced that file & it's all working again. I have also
sorted out the counter which is now PW protected & requires a PW to
access.
Hopefully there should be no further problems.
Alan.
