2751
Roger Stanyard
Re: website updates
14/09/2006 18:56:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Rudy Vonk <rudy@...> wrote:
>
> On 14 sep 2006, at 19:19, Roger Stanyard wrote:
>
> > Rudy, I always thought it was that potty Webster bloke with his
daft
> > dictionary that introduced the -ize spelling.
>
> I have a hard time believing that scenario.
You're right - here is an explanation:
The suffix -ize, although commonly misconstrued as an Americanism,
has always been a part of the English language. It was formerly used
by The Times and other publications and is and always has been used
by both Encyclopaedia Britannica and the Oxford English Dictionary.
The use of -ise in place of -ize in the United Kingdom, and later
elsewhere, came about in the 19th century under French influence; at
the same time, through the efforts of Noah Webster and others, the -
ize became standard in American English for words where both endings
were previously accepted. The steady shift in the opposite direction
for Commonwealth countries even after the 19th century may have been
to distinguish themselves from American English; in any case, for
better or worse, -ise seems to be prevalent in Commonwealth countries
except Canada (especially in Australia and New Zealand), with -ize
reserved for etymologically correct and/or academic contexts.
The line between -ize and -ise depends on etymology; etymologically
speaking, most verbs in English should be and were spelt with an -
ize, with exceptions such as -vise, -cise, and -prise existing as
well. One notable and oft-cited exception is analyse, where the -yze
ending is found normally only in the U.S. and Canada.
In some cases, however, Americans will often misspell words ending
in -cise, -vise, or -prise with -ize. The third is most likely due to
the word prize.
Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ize"
>
2752
bonytrux
Trinity Haircut Update 3
14/09/2006 19:11:00
Look North were much better in tonight's bulletin.
Unfortunately Mr. Kilgour had to read a 'joint' statement from Brew
saying Brew and parents had resolved the issue. However LN film
ridiculed the fact that Lee's hair had not changed but was
now 'acceptable'.
Look North then went on to scan the DfES guidelines I had provided and
questioned the legality of excluding for hairstyle and the legality
of 'sending home' without official exclusion letters. LN
said 'several' pupils had now contacted them about 'unofficial
exclusions' along with the lad with the bleached hair (it took 2 days
for the teachers to notice it was bleached !!)
Local councillor demanded greater scrutiny (and has already taken it
up with DfES Academies Division).
Brew was said to have refused to talk to Look North, but gave a
statement saying that he was happy with his exclusion policy and
thought he was acting legally (Must be why he backed down !!)
LN finished saying there were a lot of questions to be answered about
Trinity.
Hopefully other papers will cover it again after BBC's lead. Now going
to contact the lad with the bleached hair to offer a letter to Brew.
2753
ukantic
Re: Trinity Haircut Update 3
14/09/2006 19:36:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "bonytrux" <bonytrux@...> wrote:
>
> Look North were much better in tonight's bulletin.
> Unfortunately Mr. Kilgour had to read a 'joint' statement from Brew
> saying Brew and parents had resolved the issue. However LN film
> ridiculed the fact that Lee's hair had not changed but was
> now 'acceptable'.
> Look North then went on to scan the DfES guidelines I had provided and
> questioned the legality of excluding for hairstyle and the legality
> of 'sending home' without official exclusion letters. LN
> said 'several' pupils had now contacted them about 'unofficial
> exclusions' along with the lad with the bleached hair (it took 2 days
> for the teachers to notice it was bleached !!)
> Local councillor demanded greater scrutiny (and has already taken it
> up with DfES Academies Division).
> Brew was said to have refused to talk to Look North, but gave a
> statement saying that he was happy with his exclusion policy and
> thought he was acting legally (Must be why he backed down !!)
> LN finished saying there were a lot of questions to be answered about
> Trinity.
> Hopefully other papers will cover it again after BBC's lead. Now going
> to contact the lad with the bleached hair to offer a letter to Brew.
>
Its on the internet at http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/looknorthyorkslincs/
click on watch the latest edition/Yorkshire (East Yorkshire file blank)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/looknorthyorkslincs/realmedia/viewer_emley.ram
12 minutes 45 sec in.
Remember this will be updated & lost tomorrow.
I am going make a transcript for my website.
Alan.
2754
ukantic
Re: Proof Reading
14/09/2006 19:52:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Rudy Vonk <rudy@> wrote:
> >
> > On 14 sep 2006, at 10:33, Mikey Brass wrote:
> >
> > > My view is that this is a UK website for UK citizens and therefore
> > > should reflect Uk English spelling.
> >
> > The Times and the Economist Style Guides agree with you. I'll
change it
> > back to "s", but I still agree with Fowler :-)
> >
> Fowler can be a bit pedantic. My 1968 edition is revised by Gowers but
> Gowers in his own "The Complete Plain Words" plumps for "s" on the
> grounds that "s" is always correct but "z" is sometimes wrong (e.g.
> advertise, despise). However, this edition of Gowers is revised by Sir
> Bruce Fraser (sic :-).
>
> Brian
>
I just do what MS Word tells me.
In fifty years time, it will probably not only spell check but also
rewrite everything to a much higher standard as well.
In a hundred years time, it will do the writing whilst the person goes
for a walk.
In two hundred years time, it will take him for a walk.
But hey, that's evolution for you!
2755
ukantic
Look North Transcript
14/09/2006 21:15:00
Harry Gration
A boy who was sent home from school because of his haircut has been
told he can return after his parents threatened legal action. Lee
Kilgour has missed more than a week at Thorne Trinity Academy. Several
other pupils there have contacted us to say they have been sent home
for similar reasons. We have also been shown documents that suggest
the academies policy may be illegal. Calls are now being made for an
independent review. Kirsty Mitchell has this:
Kirsty Mitchell
This was Lee Kilgour's haircut last Wednesday, & this is Lee's haircut
today. You'd struggle to spot the difference. But this morning there
was a break-through & the family emerged triumphant from a meeting
with the Academies principle.
Lee's Father - Gary
This is a statement from Mr Brew which says that, "the parents & the
academy have worked closely together to reach an outcome & a solution
& both sides are happy with the outcome".
Kirsty Mitchell
What is the outcome?
Lee's Father – Gary
Lee is coming home for two days & shall be return to school on Monday.
It was legal advice & a government document that gave the Kilgours
courage to stand their ground. A solicitor & their ward councillor
said the schools actions were unlawful because they never properly
excluded Lee. In Fact the government guidelines state that informal or
unofficial exclusions are illegal.
Cllr Martin Williams
They are an independent body & they can sort of put two fingers up to
government guidelines in some ways. So I think we need extra scrutiny
on the Vardy schools & we need more external scrutiny & I think we
need more scrutiny from Doncaster Council as well, because we can't
have a situation where there is a school in the community which is
just doing what it wants.
Kirsty Mitchell
But Lee Kilgour isn't the only pupil that has been asked to stay away
because of his haircut. In fact we have been contacted by several
others. Sam Smullon's dyed blond hair has also fallen foul of the
Trinity Academy guidelines. He has been out of school for a week.
Vikki Gerrand (Sam's sister?)
He had his hair like that last year & there were no problems last
year. He's always had his hair like that.
Sam Smullen
They should pay more attention to education rather than pupil's hair
colours & uniform & that. Its people's education that matters more.
Kirsty Mitchell
Thorne barber Katy Varly has seen many more Trinity pupils
Katy Varly
There was at least probably between eight & ten on the Tuesday morning
within about the school opening probably about half an hour to an
hour. Loads of children.
Kirsty Mitchell
And they had all been sent out?
Katy Varly
Yes, all sent out & they had to go back in a little while.
Kirsty Mitchell
So it is back to school for Lee Kilgour, but the academy now faces
some tough questions. Kirsty Mitchell, BBC Look North, Thorne.
Harry Gration
Thanks Kirsty, the Academy wouldn't give us an interview to answer
those tough questions, but they did tell us this, they do not think
they are acting unlawfully & said that they are comfortable that the
school's policy on this is clear & consistent.
2756
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Proof Reading
14/09/2006 22:16:00
Roger Stanyard wrote:
> One issue that isn't apparent is that, from my understanding, most
> people who learn English as a second language learn American English
> rather than British English.
Those who learn it as a second language in former European colonies use
the UK spelling. Elsewhere, US.
Website convention is your choice.
2757
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: New Member
14/09/2006 22:16:00
I feel the list should be moved to a board along the lines of what Ian
set up.
2758
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Proof Reading
14/09/2006 22:27:00
Timothy Chase wrote:
> I have noticed the academic papers out of the UK using the UK spelling
> as well - if they aren't specifically intended for international
> audiences.
Try the journal Antiquity, amongst many others:-)
2759
Rudy Vonk
Re: Re: website updates
15/09/2006 08:14:00
On 14 sep 2006, at 19:56, Roger Stanyard wrote:
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Rudy Vonk <rudy@...> wrote:
> > I have a hard time believing that scenario.
>
> You're right - here is an explanation:
(snip)
A very satisfactory exposé - with the usual caveat that has to
accompany anything that sounds like "wiki". Discussion closed: I shall
use "organise" in public and "organize" in private, since I had always
(well, for 40 years or so) known that this is not an Americanism.
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2760
Rudy Vonk
Re: Re: Proof Reading
15/09/2006 08:20:00
On 14 sep 2006, at 20:52, ukantic wrote:
> I just do what MS Word tells me.
MS Word always makes me think of what a friend once said about
foot-and-mouth disease: in humans, it can normally be treated with a
single injection :-)
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2761
Wankle Rotary-Pyjamas
Re: Re: Proof Reading
15/09/2006 10:55:00
I may be barking up the wrong tree completely, but I was under the distinct
impression that proof reading was to "mark errors for later correction", rather
than to change the style of the original writing.
Phil.
----------
>From: Rudy Vonk <rudy@mores.es>
>Sent: Thu 14/09/2006 09:49
>To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re: Proof Reading
>
>The Times and the Economist Style Guides agree with you. I'll change it
>back to "s", but I still agree with Fowler :-)
2762
Rudy Vonk
Re: Re: Proof Reading
15/09/2006 12:27:00
On 15 sep 2006, at 11:55, Wankle Rotary-Pyjamas wrote:
> I may be barking up the wrong tree completely, but I was under the
> distinct impression that proof reading was to "mark errors for later
> correction", rather than to change the style of the original writing.
OK, so I am "correcting", not "proof-reading".
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2763
Roger Stanyard
Re: Proof Reading
15/09/2006 12:34:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Wankle Rotary-Pyjamas
<wankle_rotary_pyjamas@...> wrote:
>
> I may be barking up the wrong tree completely, but I was under the
distinct impression that proof reading was to "mark errors for later
correction", rather than to change the style of the original writing.
>
> Phil.
> ----------
Dunno, but in the old days of printing that would be the case as it
would be the printer rather than the proof reader or sub-editor that
actually made the final changes that appeared in print. The printer
worked to the proof readers instructions.
I don't think that we are asking people to do sub-editing (although, if
anyone feels that this is necessary, let me know. I can think of parts
where it would improve the web site).
All that I really asked was to make sure there were no typos, spelling
mistakes or grammatical errors.
I think we have to treat a wiki fundamentally differently from a normal
publication. It's a collective exercise rather than the work of a
single author and, unlike a book, periodical or whatever, is always
ongoing work. The direct key proofing saves a lot of extra work and is
simple to handle.
I'm not too worried about it having a unified style or writing or even
using English English. The individual contributors should, IMHO,
express themselves in their own words and style. The people in this
group, without exception, are all very bright and literate.
There can't be any one "right" style. We are not a bunch of journalists
working for a newspaper, say. The backgrounds, experience and expertise
of the people in this group are very different. It, by neccessity, must
reflect that.
It seems to me that the need for proofing is largely one of the
presence of typos; grammatical errors and mis-spellings through
ignorance, dyslexia or whatever are secondary (but still a problem).
Roger
2764
George Jelliss
Re: More UK Nutters?
15/09/2006 12:38:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
wrote:
>
> I've just got a list of an alleged 3,000 scientists who "dissent"
> from Darwinism. As far as I am aware, the list is not in the
> public domain.
>
>///
>
> The UK names on the list are as follows. I have added my comments
> after each name.
>
>///
>
> Vernon Jenkins M.S. has a B.Sc.(Hons) in Mining Engineering and
> a MS, both from the University of Wales. He is now Senior Lecturer
> in the Department of Mathematics and Computer Science at the
> University of Glamorgan.
>
> Not a known name to me.
>
I've corresponded with Vernon Jenkins, by email. He is one of those
who justifies taking "Genesis" as the "Word of God" because he
detects numerological patterns in it, which he calls "The Other
Bible Code". Here's his homepage:
http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/
Of course a lot of what he has on his site, about figurate numbers,
is quite attractive to me as someone interested in recreational
mathematics, and is perfectly valid arithmetic, since he is a
qualified mathematician.
However, I have pointed out to him that similar results can be
obtained from "Jabberwocky" and "The Owl and The Pussy Cat", but
somehow he remains unconvinced by my arguments! :)
2765
Roger Stanyard
Re: New Member
15/09/2006 12:59:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...>
wrote:
>
> I feel the list should be moved to a board along the lines of what Ian
> set up.
I'm increasingly inclined to that view as well. However, the move has
to be well organised.
It seems to me that we need to get as many as we can in this group to
make the move. My own view is that to do so, we will need to send a
personal email message to everybody explaining the benefits and asking
them to sign up to the new board.
Any other ideas of how to handle this?
We will also need to advertise it amongst other groups and get links
from them to it. I have frequently made reference to both this group
and our web site in the few other groups that I use but I think a much
more systematic trawl through, maybe, the top twenty or thirty
groups/sites would be an extremely good idea.
If we do make the move, methinks we should try and turn it as much as
possible to our advantage.
As it stands, the rational proposed so far is largely centred on
addressing problems we have with Yahoo about security/confidentiality v
openess (and its technical shortcomings). We can go well beyond that in
turning the move in other ways to our advantage.
Finally, if we do make the move we have to consider what to do with
this Yahoo group. Do we continue running it or do we close it down?
This is a very real issue. Moderating it does take time. I have to
check it at least once daily for such things as new member
applications. I don't particularly want to be in a position of
moderating two groups let alone having to use two groups as a normal
member. At the same time, though, it may still be necessary to run both
over a transitional phase. How long should that be?
Comments always appreciated.
Roger
PS: As an aside, my personal opinion is that Yahoo looks to be very old-
fashioned. It looks like something out of the late 1990s (which it is).
I guess that sooner or later we will thus need, anyway, to make the
move to a more modern platform. I dunno how everybody else feels but it
seems to me that Yahoo's old fashioned rather crude format may be off-
putting to many newcomers.
>
2766
Roger Stanyard
Re: Proof Reading
15/09/2006 13:04:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <alan@...> wrote:
>
> > Brian
> >
>
> I just do what MS Word tells me.
>
> In fifty years time, it will probably not only spell check but also
> rewrite everything to a much higher standard as well.
>
> In a hundred years time, it will do the writing whilst the person goes
> for a walk.
>
> In two hundred years time, it will take him for a walk.
>
> But hey, that's evolution for you!
>
Nah,
In ten years time it will auomatically deduct money from your bank
account everytime you use it.
In twenty years time it will force you to use Microsoft Bank PLC
In fifty years time it will own you.
Roger
2767
Roger Stanyard
Re: Proof Reading
15/09/2006 13:14:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase" <timothychase@...>
wrote:
>
> I have noticed the academic papers out of the UK using the UK spelling
> as well - if they aren't specifically intended for international
> audiences. For me, the deciding factor is the that the website is
> intended for the UK.
>
> (Personally, I enjoy seeing the UK spelling, although I am not exactly
> sure why. May have something to do with making me feel like I am part
> of a larger world. I suppose that is especially important for me
> nowadays, at least on an emotional level since the US has been making
> me feel something akin to claustrophobia over the last few years.)
And vice versa Tim. Stuck on an island creats its own form of
insularity.
Rudy may have something to say as a keen and eloquent linguist but I
guess that the British are a nation of kleptomanics when it comes to
foreign vocabulary.
I guess that the Americans tend to be a bit more parsimonious when it
comes to vocabulary. I guess that is because it is a nation of
immigrants from all over the world and thus has had, by circumstances,
to have come to terms with making everyday use of the language a bit
simpler.
Roger
2768
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: New Member
15/09/2006 13:27:00
>At the same time, though, it may still be necessary to run both
over a transitional phase. How long should that be?
I *think* that Yahoo groups can actually be integrated into the forum system
I have set up as well.
I have not done it, but I know that some people have.
If there's a desire to check this out, we can have a look at it over the
weekend. I'll leave the example forum in place until that point.
I.
2769
Roger Stanyard
New Member
15/09/2006 13:41:00
We have a new member, Tim Atkinson, who I have exchanged some long
emails with.
Tim is working close to where I am based.
Welcome Tim.
Roger
2770
JAF
Re: Re: New Member
15/09/2006 13:29:00
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:59:23 -0000, you wrote:
>
>Any other ideas of how to handle this?
Do moderators/owners have access to a database of members?
If so, it should be easy to transfer them all en masse.
--
JAF
anarchatntlworldfullstopcom
2771
Roger Stanyard
Re: More UK Nutters?
15/09/2006 13:33:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've just got a list of an alleged 3,000 scientists who "dissent"
> > from Darwinism. As far as I am aware, the list is not in the
> > public domain.
> >
> >///
> >
> > The UK names on the list are as follows. I have added my comments
> > after each name.
> >
> >///
> >
> > Vernon Jenkins M.S. has a B.Sc.(Hons) in Mining Engineering and
> > a MS, both from the University of Wales. He is now Senior Lecturer
> > in the Department of Mathematics and Computer Science at the
> > University of Glamorgan.
> >
> > Not a known name to me.
> >
>
> I've corresponded with Vernon Jenkins, by email. He is one of those
> who justifies taking "Genesis" as the "Word of God" because he
> detects numerological patterns in it, which he calls "The Other
> Bible Code". Here's his homepage:
>
> http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/
>
Thanks for the tip George. As usual, the AIGers have their facts
wrong. Jenkins has retired from the University of Glamorgan. He
doesn't seem to have been much of an activist although he has
contributed to AiG's technical journal. I can't find any trace of him
amongst the UK creationist groups.
I've marked him down as a non-dangerous nutter.
Roger
2772
Roger Stanyard
Re: New Member
15/09/2006 14:16:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, JAF <anarch@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:59:23 -0000, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Any other ideas of how to handle this?
>
> Do moderators/owners have access to a database of members?
> If so, it should be easy to transfer them all en masse.
> --
> JAF
> anarchatntlworldfullstopcom
>
I think that Ian may be able to help on this. The moderators of Yahoo
groups have access to a database of all the members including their
email addresses. This includes members who have never posted.
I'm not sure how we use this data to ensure that everyone who is a
member of the the old group automatically becomes a member of the new
without having to actually sign up. From what he is saying, I think
Ian is looking at how this can be done.
IIRC the only data that is missing is former members who have left
the group but I guess that is of no practicle consequence. Over the
last five months it consists or five people including two fundies
(kicked out), Peter Hearty (who has suggsted that he may rejoin
anyway), one American teacher (Phil) who only posts during school
holidays and has suggested he will return at Xmas and one American
who has said that he has nothing to contribute to anti-creationism in
the UK.
Roger
2773
Rudy Vonk
Re: Re: More UK Nutters?
15/09/2006 15:27:00
On 15 sep 2006, at 13:38, George Jelliss wrote:
> However, I have pointed out to him that similar results can be
> obtained from "Jabberwocky" and "The Owl and The Pussy Cat", but
> somehow he remains unconvinced by my arguments! :)
Perhaps your nutter isn't into quality literature :-)
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2774
Rudy Vonk
Re: Re: New Member
15/09/2006 15:50:00
On 15 sep 2006, at 15:16, Roger Stanyard wrote:
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, JAF <anarch@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:59:23 -0000, you wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Any other ideas of how to handle this?
> >
> > Do moderators/owners have access to a database of members?
> > If so, it should be easy to transfer them all en masse.
Not as easy as that. See below.
> I think that Ian may be able to help on this. The moderators of Yahoo
> groups have access to a database of all the members including their
> email addresses.
I also own a couple of Yahoo groups, and I have just been through this
in order to rescue members from a stalled newsgroup (everybody was
monitored, monitor went AWOL), and invite them to my alternative group.
The "members" section of a Yahoo group includes all Yahoo IDs, but the
e-mail addresses only if the owner of the ID authorised (yes, I
know...) it to be public. The majority didn't, it would appear. Then
there are two mechanisms left for a current group owner. You can invite
(i.e. make Yahoo send an invitation to) all your members to join the
new group, and include a "welcome" message that would instruct
everybody to do something entirely different instead.. The Yahoo ID is
sufficient for this, but you have to do a lot of copying and pasting, a
maximum of 50 at a time (but no daily limit). You can also forcibly
enlist your old group's members, but only ten per day.
The former seems pretty useless in our case (but I had to go through
this since the defunct group's members were not receiving any messages,
but the members' list was fortunately accessible to all members), since
it would be easier for Roger to summarily remove from BlackShadow the
people he doesn't want in the new format, and post the instructions to
everybody else through BlackShadow. The second option seems entirely
useless since you don't want another Yahoo group.
(Keyboard bounce tells me I have to trim my fingernails - hopefully all
edited out.)
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2775
Roger Stanyard
Re: New Member
15/09/2006 17:08:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Rudy Vonk <rudy@...> wrote:
>
> On 15 sep 2006, at 15:16, Roger Stanyard wrote:
>
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, JAF <anarch@> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:59:23 -0000, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Any other ideas of how to handle this?
> > >
> > > Do moderators/owners have access to a database of members?
> > > If so, it should be easy to transfer them all en masse.
>
> Not as easy as that. See below.
>
> > I think that Ian may be able to help on this. The moderators of
Yahoo
> > groups have access to a database of all the members including
their
> > email addresses.
>
> I also own a couple of Yahoo groups, and I have just been through
this
> in order to rescue members from a stalled newsgroup (everybody was
> monitored, monitor went AWOL), and invite them to my alternative
group.
>
> The "members" section of a Yahoo group includes all Yahoo IDs, but
the
> e-mail addresses only if the owner of the ID authorised (yes, I
> know...) it to be public.
Rudy, I think there is a way round this. When they apply to join the
group, the moderator gets a message from them in his/her email inbox
which, IIRC, does include their email address. Now, if those messages
have been lost (which I suspect is what happened in your case) there
is a problem.
In our case it less of one because Alan has sent me the messages and
I have retained all those that have joined in the last three months.
The majority didn't, it would appear. Then
> there are two mechanisms left for a current group owner. You can
invite
> (i.e. make Yahoo send an invitation to) all your members to join
the
> new group, and include a "welcome" message that would instruct
> everybody to do something entirely different instead.. The Yahoo ID
is
> sufficient for this, but you have to do a lot of copying and
pasting, a
> maximum of 50 at a time (but no daily limit). You can also forcibly
> enlist your old group's members, but only ten per day.
Not a problem, we only have 51.
>
> The former seems pretty useless in our case (but I had to go
through
> this since the defunct group's members were not receiving any
messages,
> but the members' list was fortunately accessible to all members),
since
> it would be easier for Roger to summarily remove from BlackShadow
the
> people he doesn't want in the new format,
There is nobody I would want to do that to.
and post the instructions to
> everybody else through BlackShadow. The second option seems
entirely
> useless since you don't want another Yahoo group.
>
> (Keyboard bounce tells me I have to trim my fingernails - hopefully
all
> edited out.)
>
I think we may be edging towards something we can manage well.
Roger
2776
Roger Stanyard
Creationism in Scottish Schools
15/09/2006 19:19:00
Ian mught be interested in this.
I have come across a person who is a creationist and looks to be
teaching in a Scottish state school. His name is Ewan More. If I can
find out what school he is teaching at, I would like to post
something to our web site as he appears to have brought his religion
into the science class.
Here are the details:
Ewan Robert James More (Ewan More) B.S., P.G.C.S.E. graduated in
Biology from Paisley University. Since then he has entered the
teaching profession, training at Jordanhill Teacher Training College
(graduating PGCSE in Biology and Chemistry), Scotland. (Now called
Jordanhill College.)
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/rats.asp and
http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/bcs_publications/bcs071.html show
him to be a YECer.
Any info on this bloke anyone?
2777
Roger Stanyard
Another Creationist in Academia
15/09/2006 19:27:00
Dr. Victor Khomenko is a research fellow in computing science at the
University of Newcastle. He has an MSc with distinction in Applied
Mathematics from Kiev Taras Shevchenko University in the Ukraine and a
PhD in Computing Science from University of Newcastle upon Tyne. This
page confirms his current position:
http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/home.php?id=60.
This page confirms that he is a creationist:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v18/i1/index.asp
This page, http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/victor.khomenko/, confirms
that he worships at Jesmond Parish Church – the one run by creationist
David Holloway also of the Christian Institute. He states that he is an
assistant leader of a home group and leader of a Bible study group for
international students at the church.
2778
Roger Stanyard
A Creationist to Watch Carefully
15/09/2006 19:26:00
Another nutter I have come across is Malcolm W. MacArthur Ph.D. has a
Ph.D. in Molecular Biophysics from the University of London. Ex
University College, London academic, dept of biochemistry. Appears to
be no longer on the payroll. He appears to be living in the Western
Isles of Scotland.
However I can across this posting at
http://www.israpundit.com/archives/2005/08/breakdown_in_re.php
Dr Malcolm W MacArthur said:
Dear Irene,
You are absolutely right.
The "charities" that you mentioned have over
the years been no more than racist anti-white,
anti-Judaeo/Christian communist front
organisations.
As for much of the liberal wing of the Anglican
so-called church, they appear to be no more than
a bunch of lilly-livered snivelling quislings.
But that would be a misinterpretation.
In reality they are relentlessly pursuing the
very purposeful agenda of the fabians and
humanists.
With best wishes,
Malcolm
Isle of Lewis
(where the Hebrew Bible is held in high esteem)
Posted by: Dr Malcolm W MacArthur on August 22, 2005 08:16 AM
Sounds a bit extreme, doesn't it. Well, take a look at this petition
where you will find his name on it.
http://www.thetruthisnodefense.com/petition.htm
This petition was to free Nick Griffen, head of the British National
Party. (For Americans this is basically a Nazi white supremecist
organisation.)
As I say, we need to keep an eye on this fundie.
2779
Roger Stanyard
Another Nutter in Academia
15/09/2006 19:55:00
David Oderberg D.Phil. is Professor of Philosophy in the Department
of Philosophy at the University of Reading, Reading, United Kingdom.
His BA and LLB are from Melbourne and his doctorate is from Oxford
University, all in Philosophy. He has authored 3 books, edited 4
books, and written 30 articles. Here is his personal web site:
http://www.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/ld/Philos/dso/dso.htm
and here is Answers In Genesis claiming he is a creationist:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/
Oderberg is very much a right-winger – deeply conservative.
Ironically, he is in the same department that Anthony Flew, another
deeply conservative and right wing person, once headed before he
retired. Oderberg has been described in the USA as being a neocon.
He is on record as having said that George W Bush's morality is above
Jean-Paul II's!
2780
Ian Lowe
RE: Creationism in Scottish Schools
15/09/2006 20:57:00
None whatsoever, but he's likely to be teaching in a non sectarian school if
he graduated from Jordanhill - it's bloody hard for anyone who went to
Jordanhill to get a job in a Catholic school.
I'll have a rummage, but there isn't a public directory of teachers that I
can get access to :|
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Roger Stanyard
Sent: 15 September 2006 19:20
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Creationism in Scottish Schools
Ian mught be interested in this.
I have come across a person who is a creationist and looks to be teaching in
a Scottish state school. His name is Ewan More. If I can find out what
school he is teaching at, I would like to post something to our web site as
he appears to have brought his religion into the science class.
Here are the details:
Ewan Robert James More (Ewan More) B.S., P.G.C.S.E. graduated in Biology
from Paisley University. Since then he has entered the teaching profession,
training at Jordanhill Teacher Training College (graduating PGCSE in Biology
and Chemistry), Scotland. (Now called Jordanhill College.)
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/rats.asp and
http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/bcs_publications/bcs071.html show him to
be a YECer.
Any info on this bloke anyone?
Yahoo! Groups Links
2781
bonytrux
Trinity Haircut/Life of Brew
15/09/2006 21:05:00
I saw Mr & Mrs Kilgour last night and learned more about
the 'conversation' with Brew
Brew: The DfES guidelines on exclusions don't apply to academies -
it says it in the document
Mr. Kilgour: You will find it says your policy must be consistent
with DfES guidelines (Look of thunder from Brew , one - nil)
Brew: I will let Gary come back to school but I will put him in
isolation
Mrs. Kilgour: What is the alternative to isolation ?
Brew: Exclusion
Mrs. Kilgour: OK Exclude him - give us the exclusion letter
(Another look of thunder from Brew - because he knows he can't
officially exclude him - especially with Look North waiting
outside ! two-nil game over for Brew)
Brew: I'll let him back into school on Monday - that will give his
hair another 4 days to grow (prolonging an illegal exclusion!)
Brew: I'm not worried about the publicity, it's good for us, it
encourages more pupils to want to come here. After the Channel 4
documentary we got lots of applications
(Cloud cuckoo land or are there lots of sadsistic parents out
there ?)
Councillor Martin Williams was told today by Councillor Tony Sockett
(Doncaster stooge on Trinity Board of Directos) that the order for
the purge on haircuts came from 'above'. Does this mean McQuoid,
Burns, a Vardy or God ?
Letter about Sam Smullen (dyed hair) should have hit Brew's desk
today. I am going to chase up the case of another Trinity pupil
(girl) sent home for red streak in her hair. Intend to keep the
pressure on !
2782
Ian Lowe
RE: A Creationist to Watch Carefully
15/09/2006 21:23:00
One of this list:
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/categorized_articles/creationism/scientists_
skeptical_evolution/scientists_skeptical_evolution.pdf#search=%22%22Malcolm%
20W%20MacArthur%22%22
Living on Lewis with his wife Margaret.
Looks like he was "Wee Free", and retired back to the edge of Civilisation.
He signed an epetition at the Scottish Executive about a direct flight link
between Aberdeen and Stornoway, but that's about it.
I.
2783
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Proof Reading
15/09/2006 21:30:00
Wankle Rotary-Pyjamas wrote:
> I may be barking up the wrong tree completely, but I was under the distinct
impression that proof reading was to "mark errors for later correction", rather
than to change the style of the original writing.
Proof reading, in a context such as this, is the same as proof editing.
2784
Timothy Chase
Re: Creationism in Scottish Schools
15/09/2006 22:19:00
Wasn't able to find much on this fellow. He appears in "Origins," a
periodical by the "Biblical Creation Society," but beyond this and an
article or two, he appears to be little more than a cipher as far as I
can see...
http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/bcs_publications/bcs071.html
Southsea, Hants
e.more190@ntlworld.com
http://homepages.newnet.co.uk/martynarnold/standlinks.htm
"I attended SGS from 74-79 and am now living in Southsea, Hants.Your
site is great. Brought back some good memories. Shame about the school
and sorry I wasn't on line before now to attend re-unions.I would love
to be able to get in touch with some of my old mates. Do you have any
more names and addresses that are not on line?"
http://homepages.newnet.co.uk/martynarnold/standletters5.htm
"6/06/03: Ewan More of Portsmouth, uk writes: I'm looking for Dave
Roberts, my old junior school teacher and friend from Wesley Methodist
Primary In 1974. Last saw him in the Bridge Inn in Radcliffe in 1981.
Anyone know him please contact me, thanx e.more190@lycos.co.uk"
http://legacy.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/bury/oldpals/oldpals.html
On 15/09/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Ian mught be interested in this.
>
> I have come across a person who is a creationist and looks to be
> teaching in a Scottish state school. His name is Ewan More. If I can
> find out what school he is teaching at, I would like to post
> something to our web site as he appears to have brought his religion
> into the science class.
>
> Here are the details:
>
> Ewan Robert James More (Ewan More) B.S., P.G.C.S.E. graduated in
> Biology from Paisley University. Since then he has entered the
> teaching profession, training at Jordanhill Teacher Training College
> (graduating PGCSE in Biology and Chemistry), Scotland. (Now called
> Jordanhill College.)
>
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/rats.asp and
> http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/bcs_publications/bcs071.html show
> him to be a YECer.
>
> Any info on this bloke anyone?
2785
Ian Lowe
RE: Creationism in Scottish Schools
15/09/2006 22:51:00
Different guy Timothy - this one is living on the Isle of Lewis, and has a
different email address.
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Timothy Chase
Sent: 15 September 2006 22:19
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Creationism in Scottish Schools
Wasn't able to find much on this fellow. He appears in "Origins," a
periodical by the "Biblical Creation Society," but beyond this and an
article or two, he appears to be little more than a cipher as far as I can
see...
http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/bcs_publications/bcs071.html
Southsea, Hants
e.more190@ntlworld.com
http://homepages.newnet.co.uk/martynarnold/standlinks.htm
"I attended SGS from 74-79 and am now living in Southsea, Hants.Your site is
great. Brought back some good memories. Shame about the school and sorry I
wasn't on line before now to attend re-unions.I would love to be able to get
in touch with some of my old mates. Do you have any more names and addresses
that are not on line?"
http://homepages.newnet.co.uk/martynarnold/standletters5.htm
"6/06/03: Ewan More of Portsmouth, uk writes: I'm looking for Dave Roberts,
my old junior school teacher and friend from Wesley Methodist Primary In
1974. Last saw him in the Bridge Inn in Radcliffe in 1981.
Anyone know him please contact me, thanx e.more190@lycos.co.uk"
http://legacy.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/bury/oldpals/oldpals.html
2786
George Jelliss
Re: More UK Nutters?
15/09/2006 23:43:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Rudy Vonk <rudy@...> wrote:
>
> On 15 sep 2006, at 13:38, George Jelliss wrote:
>
> > However, I have pointed out to him that similar results can be
> > obtained from "Jabberwocky" and "The Owl and The Pussy Cat", but
> > somehow he remains unconvinced by my arguments! :)
>
> Perhaps your nutter isn't into quality literature :-)
>
I also aplied the same methods to Darwin's Origin of Species, and
(counting A=1 to Z=26) found that Charles Darwin = Devil's Chaplain,
but probably this doesn't help our cause!
A local man (in Leicester) by the name of Stephen Glasse corresponded
with me last year and used similar arguments to Jenkins to justify
regarding Genesis as the Word of God. He cited earlier work by Charles
Ozanne and John Gittins (and of course Isaac Newton) as his sources
for these ideas rather than Jenkins.
2787
Timothy Chase
Re: Creationism in Scottish Schools
16/09/2006 00:48:00
Roger has brought up a few nutters today. Malcolm W. MacArthur Ph.D
lives on the Isle of Lewis, as you said, but we haven't been able to
track down Ewan More as of yet (the fellow I was looking at), and I
only had a few leads which are dead-ends from over here. However, I
have two different email addresses on him -- different providers, but
same handle before the "at."
On 15/09/06, Ian Lowe <ian@scottishatheistcouncil.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Different guy Timothy - this one is living on the Isle of Lewis, and has a
> different email address.
2788
George Jelliss
Re: More UK Nutters?
16/09/2006 10:19:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
wrote:
>
>///
> The UK names on the list are as follows. I have added my comments
> after each name.
>
I've been looking back at some correspondence I had with a local
creationist, David Densham earlier this year. (I delivered one of my
letters direct to his house, and found he has a large poster next to
his front door which quotes the first verse of Genesis.) He also
wrote letters to 'Leicester Mercury'.
He sent me a 20-page booklet, called the "International Daily Prayer
Bulletin", dated April-May 2006, published by Revival, 13 Lismore
Road, Eastbourne, East Sussex, BN21 3AY, also known as Eastbourne
Prayer Centre. They apparently produce Bible study tapes for
broadcasting.
Page 8, headed "UK Students Rebel Over Evolution Theory", covering
Genesis 1:1-28, mentions a certain "Dr David Rosevear of the
Portsmouth-based 'Creation Science Movement' ... A former lecturer
in organic chemistry at Portsmouth Polytechnic (now a university)
and ICI research scientist, Dr Rosevear said he had been invited
to expound his theories at many colleges and had addressed the 'Cafe
Scientifique', a student science society, at St Andrews university,
Fife. 'The students clearly came expecting to have a laugh but they
found there was much more to it. Our attitude is - teach evolution
but mention creationism and let students decide for themselves.'"
(Do we have Rosevear on our list?)
The next paragraph quotes an article by Duncan Campbell in 'The
Guardian' (taken from something called 'Theway.co.uk') which claims
that "Most of the next generation of medical and science students
could well be creationists" ... "Many of them came from Muslim,
Pentecostal or Baptist family backgrounds" ... "and were intending
to become pharnmacists, doctors, geneticists and neuroscientists."
2789
George Jelliss
Re: Proof Reading
16/09/2006 10:36:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> I am in pretty desperate need of help in proof reading out web site.
Since everyone here seems to be good at digging out facts about people
you may have found out that I used to be a professional proof reader
on scientific and technical journals. So I apologise for not
volunteering my services, but I'm already spending too much time
online already, looking after the Leicester Secular Society site, for
instance. Probably you can find proof reading errors there, if not in
my messages here. But frankly I've definitely retired from that work,
and am no longer particularly that bothered by minor misprints.
Although whenever I see things like 'principle' in place
of 'principal' I still see red! :)
2790
Roger Stanyard
Re: More UK Nutters?
16/09/2006 13:52:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...>
wrote:
>
>>
> I've been looking back at some correspondence I had with a local
> creationist, David Densham earlier this year. (I delivered one of
my
> letters direct to his house, and found he has a large poster next
to
> his front door which quotes the first verse of Genesis.) He also
> wrote letters to 'Leicester Mercury'.
>
> He sent me a 20-page booklet, called the "International Daily
Prayer
> Bulletin", dated April-May 2006, published by Revival, 13 Lismore
> Road, Eastbourne, East Sussex, BN21 3AY, also known as Eastbourne
> Prayer Centre. They apparently produce Bible study tapes for
> broadcasting.
>
> Page 8, headed "UK Students Rebel Over Evolution Theory", covering
> Genesis 1:1-28, mentions a certain "Dr David Rosevear of the
> Portsmouth-based 'Creation Science Movement' ... A former lecturer
> in organic chemistry at Portsmouth Polytechnic (now a university)
> and ICI research scientist, Dr Rosevear said he had been invited
> to expound his theories at many colleges and had addressed
the 'Cafe
> Scientifique', a student science society, at St Andrews university,
> Fife. 'The students clearly came expecting to have a laugh but they
> found there was much more to it. Our attitude is - teach evolution
> but mention creationism and let students decide for themselves.'"
> (Do we have Rosevear on our list?)
>
Rosevear is definetly on our list - there are numerous references to
him on our web site and he has his own page.
I take him to be a serious activist in trying to get creationism
taught as science. His name is on the Estelle Morris letter.
St Andrews is interesting because it keeps cropping up when I am
researching creationists in the UK. I have a feeling it may be
because of the influence of the theology department there rather than
fundamentalist science academics on the pay-roll. I suspect that if
we dug deeper we would find fundamentalists strong in its Christian
Society or whatever.
Roger
The next paragraph quotes an article by Duncan Campbell in 'The
> Guardian' (taken from something called 'Theway.co.uk') which claims
> that "Most of the next generation of medical and science students
> could well be creationists" ... "Many of them came from Muslim,
> Pentecostal or Baptist family backgrounds" ... "and were intending
> to become pharnmacists, doctors, geneticists and neuroscientists."
>
They have to pass their exams/complete their PhD thesises first! A
bit difficult when you claim Goddidit.
And then, or course, they have to find an employer.
And, sooner or later, me suspects, that there is going to be a
problem with employee liability insurance. The commercial insurance
markets are not going to take kindly to insurance claims that have
resulted from patients dying because fundies refuse to recognise the
scientific causes, evidence and treatments.
I also suspect that we may end up with a two tier education system
with fundies pushed into the lower institutions. In a sense, this
alraedy seems to be the case in the USA with tinpot universities such
as Biola, Regent, Liberty, Bob Jones, and Patrick Henry.
We have already seen Leeds and Leicester take action against the
influence of nutters - who will follow?
2791
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: More UK Nutters?
16/09/2006 19:44:00
On 16/09/06, George Jelliss <gpjnow@ntlworld.com> wrote:
...
>
> Page 8, headed "UK Students Rebel Over Evolution Theory", covering
> Genesis 1:1-28, mentions a certain "Dr David Rosevear of the
> Portsmouth-based 'Creation Science Movement' ... A former lecturer
> in organic chemistry at Portsmouth Polytechnic (now a university)
> and ICI research scientist, Dr Rosevear said he had been invited
> to expound his theories at many colleges and had addressed the 'Cafe
> Scientifique', a student science society, at St Andrews university,
> Fife. 'The students clearly came expecting to have a laugh but they
> found there was much more to it. Our attitude is - teach evolution
> but mention creationism and let students decide for themselves.'"
> (Do we have Rosevear on our list?)
Lovely.
Creationists are the last people in the world that I would want
teaching evolution. Just imagine the army of strawmen waiting to be
mowed down by their howitzers!
2792
ukantic
Democracy warning to council over PLF project
17/09/2006 01:08:00
THE county council has been warned to pay attention to democracy as
it moves to consult over changes to the education system in Blyth.
http://www.blyth-wansbecktoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?
SectionID=1115&ArticleID=1766377
Members of Northumberland County Council's executive are expected to
approve plans to move to the next stage of the consultation process
for the Putting the Learner First (PLF) project in the town.
The council's preferred model will see the shift from a three-tier
to a two-tier education system, but unions are angry at proposals to
site a controversial academy run by the Emmanuel Schools Foundation
in Blyth.
Kenny Bell, deputy convenor of northern Unison, said he was
concerned that the information released by the council would be one-
sided.
"Past experience on academies shows that the debate is normally very
one-sided and the public are never given all the facts they need to
make a balanced decision," he said.
"If members of the public and parents in Blyth understand the full
context behind these plans then I believe they will reject the
proposals.
"The case for an academy in Blyth is probably one of the weakest I
have ever seen.
"There is no material basis to justify an academy.
"One has to assume that the proposals are ideologically driven,
which is incredible coming from a Labour-controlled council.
"It goes to the very heart of democracy in Northumberland. County
councillors, Blyth Valley councillors and Blyth Community College
are all opposed to an academy."
If the executive agrees to move to the next stage the consultation
process will run until December 15.
Unison members will be petitioning against the plans at the Market
Square in Blyth on Saturday from 11am.
15 September 2006
2793
ukantic
Re: New Member
17/09/2006 01:07:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
> It's less about the forum - as you say, seen one, seen them all -
it's about
> the email integration side of things.
>
> I think it's fit for purpose, as do the users on another forum I
help
> manage... but that's something I would rather people saw
beforehand, rather
> than ran into afterwards.
>
> Tbh, given you have forum experience, that makes your input more
valuable -
> I'd happily pop admin rights on your account so you can see how
it's "wired
> up" in admin terms, and get a fel for what can/can't be done.
That's okay Ian; I am more familiar with the Yahoo setup anyway. I
have had a quick look at the demo Admin Section & it seems
straightforward enough. To be honest, I would be quite happy with
one of the free setups built around the same general format. There
are literally dozens of them. Okay, there are a few ads but it's
hardly a big deal & all the donkey work is done for you.
Alan.
2794
ukantic
MUMS ANGER AT NEW ACADEMYS HAIR STYLE RULES
17/09/2006 01:13:00
CONCERNS about "heavy handed" discipline at Doncaster's newest
secondary school surfaced again on the first day of the new school
term.
http://www.doncastertoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?
SectionID=786&ArticleID=1749006
Lee Kilgour, 14, is not at his desk at Trinity Academy in Thorne
after a row over the teenager's hair cut.
Lee, who is starting his GCSE course, was among four teenagers who
were told their hairstyles were unacceptable.
Three had their hair cut straight away and returned to classes.
But Lee's mum Kay argued that having Lee's hair cut off at the top
to match the "number one" shave at the sides would mean that his
hair would then be deemed to short by the school.
She said: "I am in a no-win situation. I can't understand it. He's
not a scruffy lad, he went to school in a brand new uniform and
looked really smart.
"He is starting year 10 which is a really important year for him in
terms of his GCSEs. The school should be worrying about that, not
what kind of hair cut he has.
"He had the same hair cut last year and the school never said
anything to him then. What makes me angry is I know for a fact that
there are other children there with the same haircut," said Mrs
Kilgour.
Dad Gary of Willow Crescent, Thorne, said: "I am quite willing to
pay a fine for his unlawful absence. I don't agree with the rules
and regulations."
He added: "They are trying to be like Hitler but that does not brush
with me."
A spokeswoman from the academy, run by the Christian Emmanuel
Schools Foundation which has a reputation for tough discipline and
high academic standards, stressed that Lee had not been suspended or
excluded.
He said: "All parents were sent a letter at the end of last term
reminding them of the academy standards on hairstyles, which are the
same as those at Thorne Grammar and which parents have signed up to
accept.
"Three students were told their hairstyle was unacceptable and were
requested to have it cut.
"Their parents took the necessary action and the students were back
in class immediately, on the same day.
"One other boy was told his mohican style, cut into a V shape at the
back of his head, was against the rules.
"His parent was contacted and given the option of picking him up to
get their son's hair trimmed so that he could return immediately.
"The parent agreed to this, but unfortunately did not wait to hear
that the boy should return to school the same day. This was
explained to the student, who accepted that he knew the rules and
that he had broken them. We expect him to be back at the academy
with the appropriate hairstyle as soon as possible."
WIthin weeks of the new school opening last September parents
concerned about the new tough rules had set up an action group to
register their concerns.
editorial@doncastertoday.co.uk
07 September 2006
2795
Timothy Chase
Jerry Bergman (was Re: More UK Nutters?)
17/09/2006 02:50:00
On 14/09/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I've just got a list of an alleged 3,000 scientists who "dissent"
> from Darwinism. As far as I am aware, the list is not in the public
> domain. It has been produced by Jerry Bergman who is a US academic
> and creationist nutcase associated with Answers in Genesis.
...
Roger,
Perhaps the best place to begin is by checking his own academic
credentials. I will cite the info then explain what I mean.
At the following:
Jerry Bergman and Racism
Replies to Bergman's "Are Jerry Bergman and Henry Morris Racists?"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bergman-and-racism.html
... they state (inset at the top):
"Jerry Bergman, Ph.D., Biology"
"A short biography from Answers in Genesis that links to a few of his
online articles. Notice that his degree in 'human biology' is from
Columbia Pacific University which as discussed in the Some
Questionable Creationist Credentials FAQ is a diploma mill. Quackwatch
documents that it has been shut down."
The links in the inset are:
Jerry Bergman, Ph.D., Biology
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/j_bergman.asp
Some Questionable Creationist Credentials
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
Court Orders Columbia Pacific University
to Cease Operating Illegally in California
Stephen Barrett, M.D
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/News/cpu.html
If you think about it, to get then claim that one has obtained an
advanced degree from a diploma mill is itself a form of fraud, and it
is a form of fraud which is directly relevant to his so-called list of
scientists. I would of course point out that some of the scientists
on his list are real scientists but who would disavow the list, others
are simply people speaking well outside of their area of expertise,
others might actually have a degree which is relevant but have long
since retired, died or belong to extremist religious "educational"
institutions, and still others have obtained degrees from diploma
mills similar to his, but given his own history, the entire list is
highly suspect. A few instances of each kind of "scientist" from the
list should be more than sufficient to summarily dismiss it as the
fundie propaganda it is.
2796
Roger Stanyard
Jerry Bergman (was Re: More UK Nutters?)
17/09/2006 09:52:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
<timothychase@...> wrote:
>
> On 14/09/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've just got a list of an alleged 3,000 scientists who "dissent"
> > from Darwinism. As far as I am aware, the list is not in the
public
> > domain. It has been produced by Jerry Bergman who is a US academic
> > and creationist nutcase associated with Answers in Genesis.
> ...
>
> Roger,
>
> Perhaps the best place to begin is by checking his own academic
> credentials. I will cite the info then explain what I mean.
>
> At the following:
>
> Jerry Bergman and Racism
> Replies to Bergman's "Are Jerry Bergman and Henry Morris Racists?"
> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bergman-and-racism.html
>
> ... they state (inset at the top):
>
> "Jerry Bergman, Ph.D., Biology"
> "A short biography from Answers in Genesis that links to a few of
his
> online articles. Notice that his degree in 'human biology' is from
> Columbia Pacific University which as discussed in the Some
> Questionable Creationist Credentials FAQ is a diploma mill.
Quackwatch
> documents that it has been shut down."
>
> The links in the inset are:
>
> Jerry Bergman, Ph.D., Biology
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/j_bergman.asp
>
> Some Questionable Creationist Credentials
> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
>
> Court Orders Columbia Pacific University
> to Cease Operating Illegally in California
> Stephen Barrett, M.D
> http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/News/cpu.html
>
> If you think about it, to get then claim that one has obtained an
> advanced degree from a diploma mill is itself a form of fraud, and
it
> is a form of fraud which is directly relevant to his so-called list
of
> scientists. I would of course point out that some of the scientists
> on his list are real scientists but who would disavow the list,
others
> are simply people speaking well outside of their area of expertise,
> others might actually have a degree which is relevant but have long
> since retired, died or belong to extremist religious "educational"
> institutions, and still others have obtained degrees from diploma
> mills similar to his, but given his own history, the entire list is
> highly suspect. A few instances of each kind of "scientist" from
the
> list should be more than sufficient to summarily dismiss it as the
> fundie propaganda it is.
Thanks for the tips, Tim.
Yep, Carl Baugh is on the list complete with bogus qualifications!!
>
2797
George Jelliss
Re: More UK Nutters?
17/09/2006 10:56:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@>
> wrote:
> >
> > (Do we have Rosevear on our list?)
> >
>
> Rosevear is definetly on our list - there are numerous references
> to him on our web site and he has his own page.
>
> I take him to be a serious activist in trying to get creationism
> taught as science. His name is on the Estelle Morris letter.
>
I couldn't find him on the "Who's Who in Creationism" page. But a
specific search for "Rosevear" led to the page you mention. I'm not
clear how this page is connected to the "Who's Who". Is there a lot of
other stuff there that can only be found by a specific search? I would
prefer to be able to browse all the pages.
2798
Mikey Brass
Archaeology courses on offering
17/09/2006 11:43:00
Dear all,
I am going to be offering my online archaeology courses again over the
course of the coming six months, starting in a couple of weeks. The
courses and the schedules are given below:
*Saharan archaeology *
Duration: 10 weeks, Sunday 21 January - Saturday 31 March 2007
Cost: £40 / $80
Details: http://www.antiquityofman.com/course_NorthAfrica.html
*World Archaeology (human evolution)*
Duration: 8 weeks, Sunday 24 September - Saturday 18 November August 2006
Cost: £30 / $60
Details: http://www.antiquityofman.com/course_worldarchaeology.html
*The Ancient Egyptian Past*
Duration: 6 weeks, Sunday 24 September - Saturday 04 November 2006
Cost: £30 / $60
Details: http://www.antiquityofman.com/course_AE_general.html
--
Best, Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"
- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
2799
Roger Stanyard
Re: More UK Nutters?
17/09/2006 13:40:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > (Do we have Rosevear on our list?)
> > >
> >
> > Rosevear is definetly on our list - there are numerous references
> > to him on our web site and he has his own page.
> >
> > I take him to be a serious activist in trying to get creationism
> > taught as science. His name is on the Estelle Morris letter.
> >
>
>
> I couldn't find him on the "Who's Who in Creationism" page. But a
> specific search for "Rosevear" led to the page you mention. I'm not
> clear how this page is connected to the "Who's Who". Is there a lot
of
> other stuff there that can only be found by a specific search? I
would
> prefer to be able to browse all the pages.
Just my luck - I forgot to put in a section for the Creation Science
Movement in Who's Who. It's partly because I have yet to do research
on two of its speakers. However, I've just changed the page so it
does have a section on CSM and links to Rosevear and Malcolm Bowden.
In principle I have organised the web site so that Who's Who links to
inidvidual pages of all the leading creationists we have identified.
However, some of the more obscure nutters I haven't given pages to.
So if we have anything on them, you need to use the search facility.
Over time, some of the obscure nutters will be given pages of their
own but it isn't worth doing unless we have some decent info on them
over above a passing mention. That means we need to do research on
them. Even then, it is possible we find no information about them.
Sooner or later it may be an idea to put together an alphabetical
index/list of nutters. In the meanwhile I hope the Who's Who is
sufficient. We are not yet dealing with large numbers - I guess
around a hundred.
Roger
PS, all comments on the web site are well received. It isn't perfect,
by a long margin.
2800
Roger Stanyard
Re: More UK Nutters?
17/09/2006 15:43:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...>
wrote:
>
>>
> I couldn't find him on the "Who's Who in Creationism" page. But a
> specific search for "Rosevear" led to the page you mention. I'm not
> clear how this page is connected to the "Who's Who". Is there a lot
of
> other stuff there that can only be found by a specific search? I
would
> prefer to be able to browse all the pages.
>
Here are details of another nutter involved with Rosevear:
Farid Abou Rahme
He is a trustee of and speaker for the Portsmouth-based Creation
Science Movement. He also runs a local creationist organisation, the
Northants Creation Group. It appears to target schools amongst other
organisations. We are unable to find any other members of the
Northants Creation Group and it does not appear to have its own web
page. It is believed that Farid Abou Rahme worships at the Gospel
Hall in Northampton. "Gospel Hall" shows that it is part of the
Plymouth Brethren movement. (The Brethren don't use a denominational
name.)
From our understanding the Brethren movement tends to be sympathetic
towards creationism.
See this link for evidence that Farid Abou Rahme has pushed
creationism in a school:
http://icberkshire.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0400bracknell/page.cfm?
objectid=12656552&method=full&siteid=50102. The school, Easthampstead
Park School in Bracknell is a large public sector comprehensive
School.
Dr. Farid Abou Rahme has a PhD in Civil Engineering from Sheffield
University in the UK. He is an independent engineering consultant and
apparently regularly lectures on civil engineering in universities.
He is apparently a fairly frequent speaker on creationism, mostly in
the Midlands area.
See http://www.truthandtidings.com/cgi-bin/tt?i=zkzzk223kHW9&v=220&k=
for details where, quite frankly, he talks out of his backside about
creationist "evidence". The stuff he is presented has been pulled to
pieces.