2501
findingfossils
Just a quick hello (new member)
02/09/2006 18:44:00
A (very!) quick introduction from a new member!
I have become concerned of late over the ascent of creationism in it's
various forms in our country and at the seeming rise of fundementalism
across many religions both here and elsewhere.
As a parent I take issue with the 'daily act of worship' which our
schools are obliged to supply in our supposedly secular country.
I'm very new to this method of 'posting', I'm more familiar with web
based forum and usenet style groups so please do forgive me if I make
any errors. I have purposefully kept this post brief!
Kind regards,
H (findingfossils)
2502
Roger Stanyard
Re: Ken Ham Welcoming Committee
02/09/2006 22:20:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...>
wrote:
>
> I posted a report on our encounter with Ken Ham on Blackshadow
> earlier today, but it has not appeared. I keep getting a message
> that the Blackshadow site is "temporarily unobtainable".
>
Er, should be OK George.
> Meanwhile I posted an account on the Secularists (UK) forum, so I
> refer you to that:
>
> http://z6.invisionfree.com/Secularists_UK/
>
> See the News section.
>
I hope you don't mind but here is here report:
Group: Members
Posts: 10
Member No.: 40
Joined: 16-August 06
Here's a short report on our picket of the Ken Ham meeting.
There were about six of us outside the hall from about 7pm to 8pm,
handing out leaflets to the people going in to hear Ken Ham speak.
One of these leaflets advertised our forthcoming meetings about
Evolution and Creationism, in October (at Secular Hall) and November
(at Leicester University, when Steve Jones will reprise his talk to
the Royal Society earlier this year).
I also displayed some A4 posters, mostly humorous. (In future I will
have to fit them with string so they can be hung on railings or
bushes, since they kept falling down due to the wind, and there
wern't enough people to hold them.) Anyway, they served the purpose
of attracting attention of the "Answers in Genesis" stewards, and Ken
Ham himself came out to investigate.
He engaged me in conversation for a few minutes. I brought up
questions such as how galaxies that are millions of light years away
can exist in a universe only 6000 years old, and how all the
different strata at the Grand Canyon could have been laid down during
the few months of Noah's Flood, his replies indicated that they are
still changing their answers to these sorts of questions.
He also seemed to think that I couldn't have any opinion on the Grand
Canyon, or on his "Creation Museum" which one of my posters called
a "Theme Park", unless I'd actually visited them. He began to argue
about the evidence for evolution on the same principle. I accused him
of being anti-science, since he ignored the findings of astronomers,
physicists, geologists, archaeologists, etc. not just evolutionists.
But then he had to go in to the meeting.
I don't suppose I changed his belief in any way (assuming he really
does believe these things and doesn't just use them as a means of
maintaining his lifestyle). But maybe he doesn't get to speak to too
many people of opposing views directly, so perhaps that may have some
effect.
He took our protest in good humour. He even had a photo taken of us
with him holding the poster reading "Ken Ham - Prophet of Ingorance".
Perhaps he will use it in his publicity, to show he can take a joke
against himself!
2503
Roger Stanyard
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
02/09/2006 22:22:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "findingfossils"
<findingfossils@...> wrote:
>
Hello Findingfossils
And welcome!
Roger
> A (very!) quick introduction from a new member!
>
> I have become concerned of late over the ascent of creationism in it's
> various forms in our country and at the seeming rise of fundementalism
> across many religions both here and elsewhere.
>
> As a parent I take issue with the 'daily act of worship' which our
> schools are obliged to supply in our supposedly secular country.
>
> I'm very new to this method of 'posting', I'm more familiar with web
> based forum and usenet style groups so please do forgive me if I make
> any errors. I have purposefully kept this post brief!
>
> Kind regards,
> H (findingfossils)
>
2504
oeditor
Mark Steele on Darwin
03/09/2006 00:26:00
On NOW (0030 Sat) BBC4
Could be anything. The bloke's usually good, but for his/his parents'
refusal to have his adenoids removed.
Brian
2505
Lenny Flank
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
03/09/2006 00:45:00
> A (very!) quick introduction from a new member!
>
Hello. :)
I'm just a Yank who hangs out here to help where I can -- as you may
know, the USA has been in the grip of a thriving fundamentalist
movement for over 20 years now.
I'd hate to see the UK follow in our mis-steps.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
2506
vulcannuk
Re: Mark Steele on Darwin
03/09/2006 00:53:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> On NOW (0030 Sat) BBC4
> Could be anything. The bloke's usually good, but for his/his parents'
> refusal to have his adenoids removed.
>
> Brian
>
Thanks mate. Although I seem to be the only one sad enough to be on
this time of night. And im 18! "God" i need to get a life.
2507
oeditor
Re: Mark Steele on Darwin
03/09/2006 01:02:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> On NOW (0030 Sat) BBC4
> Could be anything.
But was, in fact, brilliant. Seems it was from the Open University -
evidently they're not infected yet.
Can't see any offers of a repeat and it's too late do dig, but if
anybody's recorded it, stand by for requests for copies!
Brian
whose sides are still splitting.
(but who did, however, once sing even worse words to 'all things
bright and beautiful')
2508
ukantic
Re: Mark Steele on Darwin
03/09/2006 09:10:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@> wrote:
> >
> Brian
> whose sides are still splitting.
> (but who did, however, once sing even worse words to 'all things
> bright and beautiful')
>
I prefer the modern version myself:
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spiky urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
(Monty Python)
2509
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Mark Steele on Darwin
03/09/2006 11:10:00
vulcannuk wrote:
> Thanks mate. Although I seem to be the only one sad enough to be on
> this time of night. And im 18! "God" i need to get a life.
*grins* My fiancee and I were watching the end of last night's X-Factor
at the time you sent this mail. Aside from that, I was VPNed into my
office network to transfer a few large files from our London to
Cambridge office, saving me from working any more overtime than I have
to during the week. The realities of the world:}}}}
2510
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Ken Ham Welcoming Committee
03/09/2006 11:13:00
George Jelliss wrote:
> I'm not sure what the reference is to here, presumably you mean Buzz
> Aldrin the astronaut?
Haven't you heard of http://www.csicop.org/articles/20021018-aldrin/ ?
2511
Mikey Brass
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
03/09/2006 11:16:00
findingfossils wrote:
> I have become concerned of late over the ascent of creationism in it's
> various forms in our country and at the seeming rise of fundementalism
> across many religions both here and elsewhere.
>
> As a parent I take issue with the 'daily act of worship' which our
> schools are obliged to supply in our supposedly secular country.
Welcome to the list. I, personally, have no problem with a pray during
assembly but I do have a problem with creationism being forced as a fact
down people's throats, by the same people why cry "censorship".
--
Best, Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"
- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
2512
Roger Stanyard
Re: Ken Ham Welcoming Committee
03/09/2006 12:23:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Brass <michael.brass@...>
wrote:
>
> George Jelliss wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure what the reference is to here, presumably you mean
Buzz
> > Aldrin the astronaut?
>
> Haven't you heard of http://www.csicop.org/articles/20021018-aldrin/ ?
I don't think hitting someone is a good idea but I must admit I enjoyed
watching the clip and having a good chuckle. Given that Aldrin
basically risked his life on the moon missions, I dare say I don't
blame him for losing his cool with a complete fruitcake.
Roger
2513
vulcannuk
Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 12:52:00
For some reason recently I have had a lot of guests in my guestbook,
all from Kings Academy, all praising the institution. Apparently, it
is facist of me not to want thier views taught to children. Here's
what he said:
we do not live in a facist state where having a differing idea is
wrong. I do not want to give the impression that I believe in the
creationist garbage that the ESF spouts, and I can't say I've met a
pupil that actually pays any attention to it, but is it not wrong to
prevent others from sharing their beliefs?
And my reply:
Hang on, but when these belifs are actually fascist (which is what
they are) then I believe there is a valid concern to kick up a fuss.
Sir, one cannot have the best of both worlds. You cannot say that I
don't have the right to comment on peoples personal belifs and
values when these people are preaching them (through tax payer
money) to young impressionable children. That is REGARDLESS on
wether these pupils appear to take it seriously or not
Actually im quite enjoying it. He's pretending to be neutural,
someone away from the academy when its clear he's far from it. Take
a look:
http://www.freewebs.com/cityacademies/guestbook.htm
2514
oeditor
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 15:43:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@...> wrote:
>
> For some reason recently I have had a lot of guests in my guestbook,
> all from Kings Academy, all praising the institution.
He seems remarkably clued up about the staff there:
"And finally for this post, the Head of Science is not the only
departmental head who is not a Christian, the Heads of History,
Creative Arts, Modern Languages, the Sixth Form and Individualised
Learning are all very notable and significant exceptions. Actually
these people are not even exceptions, since they make up close to half
of the senior teaching staff in the academy." do non-Christians have
to go about with signs round their necks? It's also remarkable that a
smaller percentage of the senior staff are Christians than the 70%
claimed by the 2001 census :-). He can't be making it up though - he
hasn't even the imagination to make up a nickname! On NTL Middlesbro'
btw, so definitely local.
Brian
2515
Roger Stanyard
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 16:23:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@...> wrote:
>
> For some reason recently I have had a lot of guests in my
guestbook,
> all from Kings Academy, all praising the institution. Apparently,
it
> is facist of me not to want thier views taught to children. Here's
> what he said: > http://www.freewebs.com/cityacademies/guestbook.htm
>
Stefan,
Interesting reading! My guess is that whowever is doing the posting
is not a student or ex-student but a member of staff or someone from
ESF. Knowing the religious opinions of staff is, I guess, something
that would come out of the staff common room. The person posting
seems to have some very precise information on who believes what
amongst staff.
Moreover, the fact that over 50% of senior staff are Christians also
raises questions given that only about 7% of the population of the UK
attend church regularly. It seems to me to be firm evidence that the
school is recruiting and promoting on the basis of religion which I
believe is illegal.
No wonder the person does not want to give their name to you!
Looks like a set up job to me, a bit like the Andy Shill letter. They
all sound a bit reasonable in places such as your person saying that
there are things about King's they don't agree with (but don't say
what, surprise, surprise), but use that to lead into a claim that you
lie.
Moreover, the whole style of the postings suggests a professional
person with a working knowledge of the school. There are no typos or
spelling or grammatical errors (IIRC). It looks as if the postings
have been worked out beforehand. There is nothing spontaneous about
them.
What does everyone think?
Roger
PS Andy Shill still hasn't replied to any of my requests. I wonder
why!
2516
ukantic
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 17:17:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@...> wrote:
>
> For some reason recently I have had a lot of guests in my guestbook,
> all from Kings Academy, all praising the institution. Apparently, it
> is facist of me not to want thier views taught to children. Here's
> what he said:
> we do not live in a facist state where having a differing idea is
> wrong. I do not want to give the impression that I believe in the
> creationist garbage that the ESF spouts, and I can't say I've met a
> pupil that actually pays any attention to it, but is it not wrong to
> prevent others from sharing their beliefs?
> And my reply:
> Hang on, but when these belifs are actually fascist (which is what
> they are) then I believe there is a valid concern to kick up a fuss.
> Sir, one cannot have the best of both worlds. You cannot say that I
> don't have the right to comment on peoples personal belifs and
> values when these people are preaching them (through tax payer
> money) to young impressionable children. That is REGARDLESS on
> wether these pupils appear to take it seriously or not
>
> Actually im quite enjoying it. He's pretending to be neutural,
> someone away from the academy when its clear he's far from it. Take
> a look:
> http://www.freewebs.com/cityacademies/guestbook.htm
>
Well, the only person I know who has used the word fascist in relation
to the teaching of creationism in the UK's schools is McQuoid. Type
fascist + Mcquoid into Google set to UK to see what I mean.
With regard Harry Potter, go to the BSgroup Furl at:
http://www.furl.net/members/bsgroup
Set filter by topic to, Harry Potter – I think the letter he/she is
referring to is about the fifth down. As you can see, I have been
following this issue since it first erupted & it is evident that
schools run by creationists or other hard-line Christian groups banned
Harry Potter because it conflicted with their religious views. The
Vardy Foundation however did not give this as a reason. Instead one of
the reasons given was that the book was of poor literary value.
Another as stated by the King's vice-principle at the time (in the
letter) was that there were many other books that they did not stock &
therefore so what?
This is in spite of the fact that it was reported that pupils were
told they could not mention Harry Potter in assignments because of the
witchcraft theme.
Whoever this is writing these things on your blog is someone high up
in their hierarchy & a daylight liar to boot. However one of the
problems is that replying on the blog is going to be difficult without
splitting it down into little bits as the comment length is very
limited. I suggest making a list of the assertions made & responding
to them in full on another site & just posting the URL.
Both Creationism & Black Shadow can set up pages that can be given
individual passwords to access or edit. (Roger – you have to use the
Auth password to do this). We can do it on one of them if anyone is
interested in replying, or use something like writely.
Alan.
2517
Lenny Flank
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 17:35:00
> For some reason recently I have had a lot of guests in my guestbook,
> all from Kings Academy, all praising the institution.
My suggestion? Ignore them. You will never change their minds, it
doesn't matter what they think anyway (they have zero authority
anywhere), and it's no use wasting time on them.
I get dozens of creationist emails every week from my Creation
"Debunked" Website.
My standard response to all of them is short, sweet and to the point:
" I don't give a flying fuck about your religious opinions. They are
no better than anyone else's. "
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
2518
vulcannuk
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 17:44:00
I now know who it is. It is the current head of the kings academy,
Chris Drew. I have had several meetings with him about the content of
my site and he has used some of the same arguements that he has in the
guestbook. Particularly about me attatching catholic schools.
Stefan
2519
Mikey Brass
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 17:52:00
> we do not live in a facist state where having a differing idea is
> wrong.
The old French teacher in my former high school said, back in 1994, that
she believes she is the reincarnation of a clam. Since when does having
an opinion entitle anyone to shove that view down a student's throat
either implicitly or explicitly?
> Actually im quite enjoying it.
It is merely the beginning.
--
Best, Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"
- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
2520
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 17:54:00
vulcannuk wrote:
> I now know who it is. It is the current head of the kings academy,
> Chris Drew.
Avoid giving his name in a direct response on your site. There is more
than one way to skin a skunk.
2521
Roger Stanyard
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 18:09:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@...> wrote:
>
> I now know who it is. It is the current head of the kings academy,
> Chris Drew. I have had several meetings with him about the content of
> my site and he has used some of the same arguements that he has in
the
> guestbook. Particularly about me attatching catholic schools.
>
> Stefan
>
As we guessed, Stefan, it was someone relatively senior. It occured to
me a few minutes ago that he may not be doing this off of his own
initiative as McQuoid had posted to your blog a couple of months back.
I dunno why they are doing this - I think you must have a much better
idea.
But I keep a bit of an open mind on the reason. My best guess is that
they do not want the adverse publicity and they don't trust you. You
were an outside to some extent because you were only there for one
year. Human nature being what it is, members of a group are wary of
newcomers. Moreover, you were never there long enough for them to get
to work on you!
I notice that McQuoid tried to put you down by saying you were only
there for a year and therefore didn't understand (Jeez, how long do you
have to be in a school to understand?).
I'm more than happy to give a hand on this to you. Let me know if you
want help. As Alan pointed out I can set up a page on our Wiki (er, I
think) which has closed user group access.
Wiki is dead easy to use, but I suspect that you already know that.
Ours uses the PMWiki version.
Roger
2522
Roger Stanyard
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 18:36:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <alan@...> wrote:
>
>
> Well, the only person I know who has used the word fascist in relation
> to the teaching of creationism in the UK's schools is McQuoid. Type
> fascist + Mcquoid into Google set to UK to see what I mean.
And, of course, McQuoid has taken an interest in Stefan's site.
> Both Creationism & Black Shadow can set up pages that can be given
> individual passwords to access or edit. (Roger – you have to use the
> Auth password to do this). We can do it on one of them if anyone is
> interested in replying, or use something like writely.
>
> Alan.
I have set up a page on the Blackshadow Wiki site if that is what you
mean. It needs a password to read it but that is seperate from the
password needed to edit the site. The latter lets you do both.
However, in both cases they are general passwords, not specific to each
user.
In either case the passwords don't get handed out unless I know and
trust the person who will receive them.
If anyone wants the passwords this evening, let me know within the next
20 minutes as I am going out for a couple of hours.
Roger
2523
vulcannuk
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 18:45:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
> I dunno why they are doing this - I think you must have a much
better
> idea.
They are probably doing it for many reasons. My guess is though (as
parinoid as it may be) is that they have strong links with our local
gazette. See, they were supposed to be publishing a story about my
website, but when I was beeing interviewed by them she seemed, no
sorry, she WAS very pro-vardy. Sounded like one of them. Needless to
say it wasn't published so a couple of days a go I sent her a stroppy
e-mail claiming that she was a mere a puppet and would never become
accomplished in her field.
I think they're trying to distract me or something. Among many other
things of course.
2524
vulcannuk
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 18:45:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
> I dunno why they are doing this - I think you must have a much
better
> idea.
They are probably doing it for many reasons. My guess is though (as
parinoid as it may be) is that they have strong links with our local
gazette. See, they were supposed to be publishing a story about my
website, but when I was beeing interviewed by them she seemed, no
sorry, she WAS very pro-vardy. Sounded like one of them. Needless to
say it wasn't published so a couple of days a go I sent her a stroppy
e-mail claiming that she was a mere a puppet and would never become
accomplished in her field.
I think they're trying to distract me or something. Among many other
things of course.
2525
Roger Stanyard
Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 19:39:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
> > I dunno why they are doing this - I think you must have a much
> better
> > idea.
>
> They are probably doing it for many reasons. My guess is though (as
> parinoid as it may be) is that they have strong links with our
local
> gazette.
In a broad sense, from what you and Marc have said and from my own
research is that there is, in effect, a little mafia of
fundamentalists and their friends in the North East. I've put a load
of stuff on our web site about John Burn and the Christian Institute
and I was amazed how well connected John Burn was; it appears that
the whole Vardy schools game was his idea in the 1st place.
He had connections everwhere - in addition to his position as a
headmaster in the 1980s, he had connections through out the Anglican
church (right to the top), the National Union of Teachers, the
educational establishment in London, the teacher training system and,
on top of that, he was (and maybe still is) a magistrate.
It does appear that he used these to the hilt to get his own way,
even down to recruiting staff for the ESF schools through his charity
connections.
That man has an awful lot of influence. From what I can see he is the
real power behind Vardy in ESF. He basically used Vardy and Vardy's
money to get his own way.
He seems to surround himself with "loyal friends" such as McQuoid
into what seems to be a mini-mafia. McQuoid looks to me to be his
placeman in ESF these days.
I wonder whether it is Burn's connections with the media rather than
Vardy's that is the problem.
A little bit of research might well throw up some connections between
either Vardy or Burn and the local gazette and other local media. I
would be looking for info from Companies House on non-exec directors.
Burn and Vardy would be very very useful as non-exec directors.
2526
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
03/09/2006 20:05:00
vulcannuk wrote:
> I sent her a stroppy
> e-mail claiming that she was a mere a puppet and would never become
> accomplished in her field.
While I understand the frustration behind such an action, my advice
would be for it to be the last time. Choose your battles and a local,
minor journalist is not worth the energy of getting mad at.
--
Best, Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"
- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
2527
George Jelliss
Re: Mark Steele on Darwin
03/09/2006 20:09:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <alan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@> wrote:
> > >
> > Brian
> > whose sides are still splitting.
> > (but who did, however, once sing even worse words to 'all things
> > bright and beautiful')
> >
>
> I prefer the modern version myself:
>
> All things dull and ugly,
> All creatures short and squat,
> All things rude and nasty,
> The Lord God made the lot.
>
> Each little snake that poisons,
> Each little wasp that stings,
> He made their brutish venom,
> He made their horrid wings.
>
> All things sick and cancerous,
> All evil great and small,
> All things foul and dangerous,
> The Lord God made them all.
>
> Each nasty little hornet,
> Each beastly little squid,
> Who made the spiky urchin?
> Who made the sharks? He did.
>
> All things scabbed and ulcerous,
> All pox both great and small,
> Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
> The Lord God made them all.
>
> (Monty Python)
>
Are you sure? I thought they all evolved!
2528
findingfossils
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
03/09/2006 19:36:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...> wrote:
>
> > A (very!) quick introduction from a new member!
> >
>
>
> Hello. :)
>
> I'm just a Yank who hangs out here to help where I can -- as you may
> know, the USA has been in the grip of a thriving fundamentalist
> movement for over 20 years now.
>
> I'd hate to see the UK follow in our mis-steps.
Thanks for the welcome guys :-)
I'll help out where I can too, although being a mum of 4 I don't get
too much free time!
I first became interested in the situation in our schools when my
autistic son came home upset from his mainstream, non faith, primary
school because he had been told off for not praying in assembly. The
teacher had tried to make him pray and he had quietly refused and was
made to sit out at the front alone.
Leaving aside the difficulties this whole situation presented for an
autistic child, I was deeply concerned that the staff were making
children pray and disciplining those who would not. Upon complaining I
was told that he could not excuse himself from praying, I had to send
him a note beforehand, that this is government policy. I was amazed.
I have less of a problem with prayers being held than I have with
children being singled out because they refuse to pray, or those that
have received notes excusing them from prayer having to sit in another
room whilst the whole assembly occurs, I mean they can just sit
quietly during the whole thing, including prayer, can't they. Both of
those things happened to my child at primary school age. I hate to see
kids singled out in that way, it is like an open invitation for other
kids to pick on them.
My elder son had just pretended to pray and sat and daydreamed instead
but my autistic child could not do that.
Both are in secondary school now and they are much more flexible
there, in fact prayers are rarely said at all, and no one checks to
see who is not joining in. We have 2 more children to get through
primary school yet - I am more prepared now though :)
I have always had an interest in science in general and became
interested in evolution vs creation at school when we covered it in
biology and a Jehovas Witness boy challenged the teacher on the topic.
I was amazed at what he had to say, in fact it still amazes me what
some creationists actually do believe. I am an avid fossil hunter &
collector have been variously told that that my fossils are only a
few hundreds or thousands of years old at most, they were made by god
as a test of peoples faith, they are fakes etc etc. One of those
people was a teacher - the same one that told my elder son that
polystyrene cups and thermos flasks are not examples of insulators
when she took his science lesson.
H (findingfossils)
2529
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
03/09/2006 22:45:00
findingfossils wrote:
> I'll help out where I can too, although being a mum of 4 I don't get
> too much free time!
Join the club. I have two careers and a personal life. I've been
involved in the anti-creationist fight since March 2000 and am on this
list to offer my knowledge and expertise as an advisor.
> I first became interested in the situation in our schools when my
> autistic son came home upset from his mainstream, non faith, primary
> school because he had been told off for not praying in assembly.
Unacceptable. If there is a pray during assembly, it should not be made
compulsory...
> I had to send
> him a note beforehand, that this is government policy. I was amazed.
Forgive me for not believing them. In your position, I would have asked
immediately for them to produce the legislative document and until they
could to stop victimising your son or you'd report them to the governing
board.
> One of those
> people was a teacher - the same one that told my elder son that
> polystyrene cups and thermos flasks are not examples of insulators
> when she took his science lesson.
Was she a full-in or a biology/chemistry teacher?
--
Best, Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"
- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
2530
oeditor
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
03/09/2006 23:32:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "findingfossils"
<findingfossils@...> wrote:
>
> I first became interested in the situation in our schools when my
> autistic son came home upset from his mainstream, non faith, primary
> school because he had been told off for not praying in assembly. The
> teacher had tried to make him pray and he had quietly refused and
> was > made to sit out at the front alone.
Totally unacceptable - and I'm sure most Christian teachers would
agree. Or maybe not, when I think back to Sunday School...
Let's start again: yes, typical. Should be sacked.
>
> Leaving aside the difficulties this whole situation presented for an
> autistic child, I was deeply concerned that the staff were making
> children pray and disciplining those who would not. Upon complaining
I > was told that he could not excuse himself from praying, I had to
send > him a note beforehand, that this is government policy. I was
>amazed.
Technically correct, but what sort of school would discipline a young
child for something he didn't understand when all they had to do was
send him home with a note putting his parents in the picture?
>
> I have less of a problem with prayers being held than I have with
> children being singled out because they refuse to pray, or those
that > have received notes excusing them from prayer having to sit in
another > room whilst the whole assembly occurs, I mean they can just
sit > quietly during the whole thing, including prayer, can't they.
I always envied the one RC boy in my class, who was allowed to slope
off and skip assembly. But I think I must be missing something here:
surely schoolboys go in for token mouthing for generations. Are you
saying that they tried to force you son, singling him out (as they
must have done) and demanding to hear him pray among the melee? Vile
and contemptible.
> My elder son had just pretended to pray and sat and daydreamed
instead > but my autistic child could not do that.
would that I had had your younger son's courage at school.
> Both are in secondary school now and they are much more flexible
> there, in fact prayers are rarely said at all, and no one checks to
> see who is not joining in. We have 2 more children to get through
> primary school yet - I am more prepared now though :)
> I am an avid fossil hunter &
> collector have been variously told that that my fossils are only a
> few hundreds or thousands of years old at most, they were made by
god > as a test of peoples faith
Ammonite, schmammonite, what does it matter as long as you believe in
Jesus? Most Christians would say "not at all", anyway.
> One of those
> people was a teacher - the same one that told my elder son that
> polystyrene cups and thermos flasks are not examples of insulators
> when she took his science lesson.
Incompetent. Either she should be sacked, or the head should be for
letting her teach science when she's clearly not capable. Bloody hell,
I thought it was bad enough when our son's primary teachers couldn't
spell!
Brian
2531
Roger Stanyard
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
03/09/2006 23:50:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "findingfossils"
<findingfossils@...> wrote:
>
>
Hello Findingfossils
Sorry for not getting back you in full today - it's nearly midnight
and I am getting tired.
I think from what you have said that there are grounds to take action
against the school involved.
I'll get back to you in the morning. A full reply will take me an
hour or so and its too late now to do it.
regards
Roger
2532
Roger Stanyard
Good News Out of Castel Gandolfo
04/09/2006 10:19:00
The news out of Castel Gandolfo is looking good, according to this
Reuters' report (yesterday). It seems that creationism (i.e YEC)
wasn't even on the horizon in the discussions and ID is out of the
window as well.
As Dick Bausch at debunkcrationism has commented, it looks like the
net result will be mass-suicide at the Discovery Institute.
That it is a Reuters report is significant because the news agencies
tend to report fairly blandly and without a hidden political agenda.
Roger
Pope and former students ponder evolution, not "ID"
Sun Sep 3, 2006 12:46 PM ET
By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor
PARIS (Reuters) - Pope Benedict and his former doctoral students
spent a weekend pondering evolution without discussing controversies
over intelligent design and creationism raging in the United States,
a participant said on Sunday.
The three-day closed-door meeting at the papal summer residence of
Castel Gandolfo outside Rome ended as planned without drawing any
conclusions but the group plans to publish its discussion papers,
said Father Joseph Fessio S.J.
Media speculation had said the debate might shift Vatican policy to
embrace "intelligent design," which claims to prove scientifically
that life could not have simply evolved, or even the "creationist"
view that God created the world in six days.
"It wasn't that at all," Fessio, who is provost of Ave Maria
University in Florida, told Reuters by telephone from Rome. The
Pope's session with 39 former students was "a meeting of friends with
some scholars to discuss an interesting theme".
"We did not really speak much about intelligent design," said Fessio,
whose Ignatius Press publishes the Pope's books in English. "In fact,
that particular controversy did not arise."
Creationism -- the view that God created the world in six days as
described in the Bible -- was "almost off the radar screen of the
people in this group," he added. The Catholic Church does not read
the Genesis account of creation literally.
Fessio said Benedict took part in the discussions but said nothing
different from previous public statements, in which he has recognized
evolution as a scientific fact but argued that God ultimately created
the world and all life in it.
As the Pope put it at his inaugural Mass after being elected in April
2005, "We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution.
Each of us is the result of a thought of God."
ANNUAL GET-TOGETHERS
Benedict, who taught theology at four German universities before
becoming archbishop of Munich and then the Vatican's top doctrinal
official, has held these annual get-togethers since the late 1970s.
The international group debates in German.
Charles Darwin's theory of evolution has long been rejected in the
United States by conservative Christians who want to have a Bible-
based view of creation taught in public schools, where the church-
state separation bars the teaching of religion.
More recently, Darwin's critics have campaigned to have "intelligent
design" taught as a scientific alternative to evolution. President
George W. Bush and other conservative politicians support this drive
to "teach the controversy".
The "ID movement" does not name the designer as God, but its
opponents say that is the logical conclusion and call this an
unacceptable bid to sneak religion into the teaching of science.
Schools in some parts of the United States teach intelligent design
as an alternative to evolution but a Pennsylvania court banned it
there last year, saying it was religion in disguise.
Catholic teaching accepts evolution as a scientific theory but
disagrees with what it calls "evolutionism," the view that the story
of life has no role for God as its prime author.
Vienna's Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, a close associate of the
Pope, was one of four speakers who addressed the meeting. He raised
eyebrows last year with a New York Times article that suggested the
Catholic Church supported the "ID movement".
Schoenborn and Benedict have said several times over the past year
that intelligence in the form of God's will played a part in creation
and that neo-Darwinists who deny God any role are drawing an
ideological conclusion not proven by the theory.
They say they use philosophical reasoning to conclude that God
created the world, not arguments which intelligent design supporters
claim can be proven scientifically.
(Additional reporting by Philip Pullella in Rome)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
© Reuters 2006.
2533
Roger Stanyard
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
04/09/2006 12:34:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "findingfossils"
<findingfossils@...> wrote:
>
>> Leaving aside the difficulties this whole situation presented for
an
> autistic child, I was deeply concerned that the staff were making
> children pray and disciplining those who would not. Upon
complaining I
> was told that he could not excuse himself from praying, I had to
send
> him a note beforehand, that this is government policy. I was amazed.
So am I. I think that they are talking out of their backsides. As far
as I am aware, individua schools are given a considerable amount of
latitude in determing the extent and degree of worship. It looks like
they are hiding their own decisions behind a lot of BS.
>
> I have less of a problem with prayers being held than I have with
> children being singled out because they refuse to pray, or those
that
> have received notes excusing them from prayer having to sit in
another
> room whilst the whole assembly occurs, I mean they can just sit
> quietly during the whole thing, including prayer, can't they. Both
of
> those things happened to my child at primary school age. I hate to
see
> kids singled out in that way, it is like an open invitation for
other
> kids to pick on them.
>
> My elder son had just pretended to pray and sat and daydreamed
instead
> but my autistic child could not do that.
I must admit pretending to pray was all I ever did at school and I
guess that was much the same with most of the children. However, I
suspect that you have a seriously good cause for complaint with your
autistic child.
> Both are in secondary school now and they are much more flexible
> there, in fact prayers are rarely said at all, and no one checks to
> see who is not joining in. We have 2 more children to get through
> primary school yet - I am more prepared now though :)
>
> I have always had an interest in science in general and became
> interested in evolution vs creation at school when we covered it in
> biology and a Jehovas Witness boy challenged the teacher on the
topic.
> I was amazed at what he had to say, in fact it still amazes me what
> some creationists actually do believe. I am an avid fossil hunter &
> collector have been variously told that that my fossils are only a
> few hundreds or thousands of years old at most, they were made by
god
> as a test of peoples faith, they are fakes etc etc. One of those
> people was a teacher - the same one that told my elder son that
> polystyrene cups and thermos flasks are not examples of insulators
> when she took his science lesson.
Now, if that teacher is teaching in a secondry school, you have very
strong grounds for complaining right the way up to your MP. Letters
to the local papers are also very effective. If you need help on
this, I am more than willing to do the drafting of letters and
putting together a plan of action. What we would need from you is
names and addresses to write to.
We already have worked on this problem. It is clear that you can
complain to a wide variety of influence on the school starting with
the headteacher, the governors, local councillors and your MP.
The teacher involved is ultimately answerable to you. Their job is
not a sinicure which allows them to use their time to push their own
religious agenda.
It's the teacher's job to get your children through ther science
exams. If they are pushing rubbish that will make them fail, then the
whole school needs to be called to account. It is simply failing in
its statutory duties.
Roger
2534
oeditor
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
04/09/2006 12:49:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "findingfossils"
<findingfossils@...> wrote:
>
One of those
> people was a teacher - the same one that told my elder son that
> polystyrene cups and thermos flasks are not examples of insulators
> when she took his science lesson.
>
Just a thought, in the cold light of day: could she be someone with no
science training who was working from a script? If so, and if both
clueless and rigid-minded, could she have been wanting examples of
*electrical* insulators? If so, polystyrene is a perfectly good answer
but an unconventional one. Thermos flasks technically correct but
impractical.
Devil's advocate, that's me!
Brian
2535
Roger Stanyard
George - Re Ken Ham
04/09/2006 19:45:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...> wrote:
>
George, do you realise that you are a guest star on Answers in
Genesis's web site!
http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundtheworld/2006/09/02/secular-
society-protests-ken-ham-in-leicester/
http://tinyurl.com/ggq4t
Well done.
Ham claims that his do attracted 400 people. What was he doing, giving
free beer away?
Seems to me highly implausable that he got 400 people there at short
notice. It's summer break time at the university, the event was at
short notice and a bummer to get to on an early Friday evening as I
well found out.
Any ideas, Is Ham pushing pork again?
Roger
2536
oeditor
Re: George - Re Ken Ham
04/09/2006 20:46:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@> wrote:
> >
>
> George, do you realise that you are a guest star on Answers in
> Genesis's web site!
>
Well, now we all realise (as if you and Lenny didn't keep telling us)
that cretinists play dirty. Ham was, clearly, wired when he spoke to
George. Whether he was kitted-up in advance, or just when his minders
spotted the protest, is immaterial.
Apart from that, his half of the conversation seemed to consist of the
usual trick - one-liners that would take paragraphs to reply to.
Brian
2537
Marc Draco
Re: Re: Help, They''re ganging up on me!
04/09/2006 20:54:00
The Gazette is pro-vardy (not the reporter as much as the editor is an
ass-kisser. IIRC they are connected with the sunderland echo - do the math!)
vulcannuk wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
> <BlackShadow%40yahoogroups.com>, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
> wrote:
> > I dunno why they are doing this - I think you must have a much
> better
> > idea.
>
> They are probably doing it for many reasons. My guess is though (as
> parinoid as it may be) is that they have strong links with our local
> gazette. See, they were supposed to be publishing a story about my
> website, but when I was beeing interviewed by them she seemed, no
> sorry, she WAS very pro-vardy. Sounded like one of them. Needless to
> say it wasn't published so a couple of days a go I sent her a stroppy
> e-mail claiming that she was a mere a puppet and would never become
> accomplished in her field.
> I think they're trying to distract me or something. Among many other
> things of course.
>
>
2538
vulcannuk
Made a video
04/09/2006 21:01:00
I have finished my video on ESF. I have posted it on my website:
http://www.freewebs.com/cityacademies/video.htm
It does take a while to download, but not terribly long. I have posted
it on youtube.com so it should be on tommorow. When you go on the page
you have two options. I suggest "click here to download". It doesn't
actually download it, but opens it up in windows media player. That
way you can check the buffering process.
Tell me what you think.
Stefan
2539
findingfossils
Re: Just a quick hello (new member)
04/09/2006 21:47:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
Gosh, I wasn't expecting so many replies! Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and comments, I will try to answer the queries below:
Are you saying that they tried to force you son, singling him out (as they
must have done) and demanding to hear him pray among the melee?
Yes, that is what happened. He was probably the only one whose lips weren't moving and is fairly easy to spot as he holds himself rigid and upright and wouldn't have been bent over or holding his hands together either). Their attitude was that they are obliged to lead the prayers and without a note stating otherwise the children are all obliged to join in. I seem to recall the head using the argument that some children didn't like maths but the school was still legally bound to teach them it. That just falls down in so many ways (for me at least).
As far as I am aware, individua schools are given a considerable amount of
latitude in determing the extent and degree of worship. It looks like
they are hiding their own decisions behind a lot of BS.
Is there any piece of legislation that states precisely what the legal situation is? I complained both to the governers and to the LEA in writing but only got dismissive, placatory replies. It was about 8 years ago, so too late for any other action now. I wish I had access to people such as you then as I could have done a lot more I'm sure. It is not easy to find out everything you need to know even with all the resources of the internet to hand. The school now has a new head so I am hopeful that the situation there is somewhat different now.
Just a thought, in the cold light of day: could she be someone with no
> science training who was working from a script? If so, and if both
> clueless and rigid-minded, could she have been wanting examples of
> *electrical* insulators?
No, it asked specifically for thermal insulators - he brought the worksheet home to show us as he was so sure he was correct, I may even still have it :) I did go in and speak to the teacher the next day and she admitted saying it - but said that she normally teaches years 2 &3 rather than year 6's such as my son, she was just covering that day! She gave correct answers as loft insulation and ceramic mugs. She left the same year as my youngest son, which was 2 years after that incident, and I've no idea if she is still teaching. Luckily she never taught either of my sons full time!
The comment on the fossils being younger was when my son took one in for an earth day type display complete with a little card he had made which gave it's name, type, approx age etc. She was in charge of the display and told him he could put the trilobite on but not the card as the information was incorrect. I was sure it was correct but, always ready to bow to superior knowledge, went in to ask what was wrong. I was told it's age was incorrect as it was greater than the age of the earth!! She did deny saying exactly this when I complained to the head and tried to make out I had misunderstood her somehow. I thought of so many good replies to what she had said after the event, hehe, I was a bit flabbergasted at the time :)
2540
vulcannuk
Re: Made a video
04/09/2006 23:20:00
Here is the youtube.com viewing. It downloads faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj31S2-Pa_E
2541
Roger Stanyard
Re: George - Re Ken Ham
05/09/2006 00:30:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@>
wrote:
> > >
> >
> > George, do you realise that you are a guest star on Answers in
> > Genesis's web site!
> >
> Well, now we all realise (as if you and Lenny didn't keep telling us)
> that cretinists play dirty. Ham was, clearly, wired when he spoke to
> George.
This is why I would like to see this group as a closed user group. It
looks clear to me that they are sniffing round us (I'm pleased to say).
2542
Lenny Flank
Re: Re: George - Re Ken Ham
05/09/2006 00:54:00
Well, now we all realise
> (as if you and Lenny didn't keep telling us) that cretinists play
> dirty.
They are dishonest liars, every one. I don't trust any of them as
far as I could throw them.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
2543
andy_shill
Re: Some Site Rules
05/09/2006 06:55:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
> Firstly, a message to Andy Shill. Will you please identify yourself
or
> at least make an introduction.
Hi Guys
Just returned from an enjoyable family holiday in the Canary Islands
which may provide some sort of semi-plausible explanation for my
couple of weeks of "cybersilence" which has evidently caused some
degree of consternation, conjecture and a lot of googling to uncover
my identity!
I've been on holiday with my wife and kids!!! Got back late yesterday,
ploughed through a mountain of mail, dealt with 100+ emails, back in
the office today followed by a late Board meeting this evening and
then started to catch up on BS posts hence the late hour of this
message. I've stuck with it till 3.30am because of the paranoia,
suspicion and accusation that relaxing on a beach has understandably
provoked??? I did think a couple of hours ago that I would simply
unsubscribe for my unpardonable behaviour but I don't want to leave
you believing some incredible conspiracy theory and I decided to take
a final opportunity (big vote to move to a closed forum finishes on
the 6th) to express a robust opinion.
INTRODUCTION
I never said, suggested, implied or alluded to the fact that my name
was Shill - it's an email address! Those of you with relatively common
names have surely found that when choosing email addresses your name
is not normally available as it is already in use by someone else with
said moniker. I did not assume that ukantic, vulcanuk, or wankle
rotary pyjamas were names. How long will it be before you start to
panic about the identity of "findingfossils" and debate offline
who "H" really is or what it might stand for? Forgive me for not
having the creative capacity to have come up with a comedic or quirky
email address. Sadly over the years with a variety of ISP's I have
chosen to use my given name and a variety of simply arranged letters
that will be easy for others to remember. I have found it more
efficient than including numerals or punctuation marks.
Andy (the name I did put to my post) does indeed appear on my birth
certificate - well Andrew to be precise - and avoid the possibility of
being accused of inaccuracy. I am not Andy Macintosh, I am not a
Professor of Thermodynamics, I am not a scientist, I am not an expert
in anything, I did not attend a prestigious UK Uni(I have a Masters
from a provincial Uni)and I'm not an anti-creationist. I did not
mislead any of you in any of the aforementioned. I have neither
website nor blog that I can point you to that will introduce me or my
opinions to you and yes I did set up a Yahoo profile on the day I
posted because it was part of the process of applying to join your
Yahoo group. There is no info on it because my purpose was to give
time to a considered post(prior to leaving on a family holiday) not
write a profile page that had little sense of urgency or importance to
me.
WHO AM I?
I am a child of the sixties brought up in Dublin's fair city but have
lived the past 34 years in various locations throughout the UK. I know
a little about lots and quite a lot about a little. I'm married with
two children in secondary school and I've got a stunning Boxer dog.
I'm almost addicted to the news, love sports (especially football),
have an avid interest in politics but would not align myself with any
particular party. My interest in this subject developed significantly
about two years ago at the time of increasing media attention to ID.
That led me, more recently, to some of the anti-creationist sites from
which I linked to a number of the creationist websites. I came to BS
through SJS and Roger's blog. I have observed the discussion as an
outsider and focused particularly on BS because of the intensity and
passion that was being expressed with a view to strategic action.
Voyeuristic? maybe - but I personally, found your discussions, petty
squabbles and big ambitions a great deal more entertaining than
wasting time watching reality TV. Metaphysics, philosophy and the
socio-political implications of these issues hold far more personal
interest for me than the raw science.
WHY DID I JOIN?
Having observed the discussions for some time and seeing the apparent
excitement of going public as the "umbrella" organisation for UK anti-
creationism in schools I wanted to express my concern that you were
setting yourselves up for public humiliation. What right did I have to
express such a view? It was just my opinion - but I'm not embarrassed
to have an opinion. My experience? - I have worked in PR - writing
speeches for politicians, involved in city wide news publications and
dealing with the national press on a daily basis. Does that make me an
expert - no!
A RATIONAL RESPONSE
I wrote a carefully considered opinion that you, as intelligent
individuals, had an opportunity to weigh to decide whether or not
there was any merit to my argument. If what I said was rubbish then
you were free to dismiss it but if it stood up to scrutiny then it may
serve to direct your next course of action. However, rather than
engage with the argument as stated, it appears that paranoia and panic
set in.
One member is put on moderation for engaging too eagerly with the
post, though Alan engaged with it earlier, agreeing with much and
expressing quite radical views(in as much as they had not been
mentioned at any time previously)but he was not put on moderation!
What was Ian's particular sin?
A summary of my opinion, bluntly expressed, would have been you will
appear as a disorganised, ill-informed, amateur and illiterate group
of individuals with an inability to cohesively unite behind a clear
plan of strategic action. And your intention, Roger, is to represent
a bright and intelligent face to researchers and journalists! Guys as
an outside observer, you have failed to demonstrate the capacity to
stay focused on a single significant issue to completion let alone a
co-ordinated strategy of action.
However, such a straight summary would, I am sure, have been dismissed
as the attack of an unsympathetic antagonist. Therefore, I took some
time to demonstrate my opinion in less blunt terms and with specific
reference. Your reaction? Do you change four letters in the website
to consistently say BCSE - NO! It still says BSCE in titles and down
the sidebar - WHAT IS BSCE? I detailed the list of typos and you ask
for more info? I'm lying in the sun - nowhere near a computer - and
your wasting time trying to provoke a response from me that could have
been used to get the name right in your primary medium of public
introduction! You engage yourselves in pontificating on the identity
of this dangerous interloper, while your organisation has no
structure, no strategic plan and is currently acting as umbrella
for ?????? What great danger did I present to you? Is my opinion
rubbish? Dump it! How am I going to derail your glorious ambition.
How many thousands of others are there like me who are secretly spying
on a public forum???
VEILED THREAT
Relax Roger, there was no veiled threat from me. I did not confuse
your blog, BS, SJS or the website. I questioned the wisdom of you
being spokesperson without some clear strategy to explain why you had
the role and who you represented. I was not contesting your right to
speak to this issue. I was trying to draw attention to the fact that
you are easily associated with your blog which scathingly denounces
the academic credibility of professors and others to express their
opinions outside their specific discipline. Question: Why would
others not turn your own tactic against you by demonstrating your own
lack of qualification to speak to some of these scientific issues?
When you strongly denounce the credibility of others the press often
want to establish your own credibility. Does this disqualify you? No,
but it seems ill prepared not to consider the issue and prepare an
intelligent defence for obvious questions?
The point on hate crime is simple. Anyone watching the news will be
fully aware of the contstant reference to this issue in relation to
religious statements. Anything that might be considered as inciting
hatred in others on religious grounds could be pursued under recent
legislation. It's very vague and therefore difficult to assess the
risk from. My advice was - don't say anything that is not absolutely
relevant to your primary purpose. You disagree - ignore my opinion
sure but get a martyr complex? Sorry!
I think I tried to give you good advice that was at least worth
considering. My motivativation was explicitly expressed - you are
going to go off half cocked and subject yourself to ridicule. You
don't agree - fine but to get back from holiday finding out what a bad
guy I am - I'm a little surprised and somewhat wound up. Yes I
attacked the wisdom of your actions in going public without a clear
consideration of numerous issues. Two weeks later and the web site is
publicly available without simple corrections and some key issues
considered. Who cares - reading two weeks of posts and you still keep
getting sidetracked on secondary issues, red herrings and petty
squabbles while you boast about your big intentions.
Attack me, denounce me, deride my opinion, dump me and go to your
closed forum but how will that address any of the issues I've raised
or suddenly change your corporate capacity to focus clearly on key
issues and complete them.
Miffed
Andy
2544
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Some Site Rules
05/09/2006 09:59:00
andy_shill wrote:
> A summary of my opinion, bluntly expressed, would have been you will
> appear as a disorganised, ill-informed, amateur and illiterate group
> of individuals with an inability to cohesively unite behind a clear
> plan of strategic action.
I would agree with the disorganised, simply because of the diversity of
our backgrounds. I follow two careers and this, combined with my private
life, makes me unsuitable for being a ground activist. I have been
involved in fighting creationism since March 2000 and have a wealth of
experience which combines with my academic knowledge. Basically, I see
my role here as an advisor on scientific matters, not as an organiser.
I do, however, dismiss the "ill-informed" and "illiterate" comments.
> while your organisation has no
> structure, no strategic plan and is currently acting as umbrella
> for ??????
Sadly. It is also true that the vast majority of list members are silent
participants and the core group of people who do have the time and
resources, although the former in small quantities, are presently too
few in number.
On the latter point, would you have the time and/or the inclination to
become more organisationally involved (such as assisting with and
editing the Wicki and reading certain sections of the national
curriculum, for example) ?
--
Best, Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"
- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
2545
Roger Stanyard
Re: Some Site Rules
05/09/2006 10:57:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "andy_shill" <andy_shill@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
>
> > Firstly, a message to Andy Shill. Will you please identify
yourself
> or
> > at least make an introduction.
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Just returned from an enjoyable family holiday in the Canary
Islands
> which may provide some sort of semi-plausible explanation for my
> couple of weeks of "cybersilence" which has evidently caused some
> degree of consternation, conjecture and a lot of googling to
uncover
> my identity!
Anndy
Well, I owe you an apology but I did ask repeatedly for you to
identify yourself. It is of great concern to us that we do not have a
mole in the group. There is a lot of work being done in the
background (off site) centered on this issue. Fundamentalists play
dirty as you can see from today's posts.
The current position is that much of the emailing between us is done
off site and we want to move it on site but we have to ensure that
the is a reasonably high degree of security. As it stands, we know
all but about two people on site and you were one of the two we
didn't know.
You have moved into a group where we are strangers to you and vice
versa. Human nature being what it is, there ends up a degree of
mutual suspicion until we get to know each other.
At least one senior member of this group (not me) went ballistic (off-
site) when he saw your orginal posting. Several of us though that it
was basically very damaging, especially in its later stages.
Whether you like it or not, some of us have put an immense amount of
effort into the group. It is going to be a long slog to get together
a serious anti-creationist movement in the UK. As it appears to us
there are only about 150 people in this group and SJS and of those
only about 10% are putting in serious effort. Some, because of job
committments are intermittent constributors to the movement and none
of us are full time.
I've got about 10-15 hours a week set aside. It was extremely
disconcerting to see the criticisms of our web site when we had only
just started to load data onto it. IIRC, we had only spend about 10
hours on it at the time.
The web is now largely complete, btw.
I also have to say that it is not the cleverest idea to post a highly
critical analysis without identifying yourself. Whilst many of the
points we take to heart, it raised a massive amount of suspicion -
especially when you used the name Shill. It was the Americans that
tipped us off about what that means in the Internet world. It's an
extremely disparraging term. Under certain circumstances it is a
criminal offence to act as a shill.
What were we supposed to think?
I went out of my way to give you the benefit of doubt and in the
absence of a reply, was forced to come to a decision and conclusion.
Under the circumstances, there could have been no other way.
However, methinks it is time to let bygones be bygones. There has
been a lot of misunderstanding and I don't want to lose a valuable
adviser.
We need all the help we can get.
Will you therefore accept my apologies, Andy?
Best regards
Roger
2546
Roger Stanyard
Re: Made a video
05/09/2006 11:14:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@...> wrote:
>
> Here is the youtube.com viewing. It downloads faster.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj31S2-Pa_E
Hello Stefan,
Yep, that's a great video and I think we need more of them. I think
that you have got a natural talent there. It is actually very well
rounded.
I'd like to post the URL of the video onto a couple of places on our
web site.
Would you mind?
Roger
>
2547
Roger Stanyard
Re: Some Site Rules
05/09/2006 11:29:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "andy_shill" <andy_shill@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@> wrote:
>
> > Firstly, a message to Andy Shill. Will you please identify yourself
> or
> > at least make an introduction.
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Just returned from an enjoyable family holiday in the Canary Islands
> which may provide some sort of semi-plausible explanation for my
> couple of weeks of "cybersilence" which has evidently caused some
> degree of consternation, conjecture and a lot of googling to uncover
> my identity!
Andy,
I have just re-read your post again. It needs a lot of thinking about.
For what it is worth, I thank you for the posting. You have put a lot
of effort into it and it is exceedingly useful. I'm not offended by
strong words.
It seems the silliest thing in the world to fall out over what has been
said and done. You are not an enemy. I see you as a strong friend of
the cause and we need as many people in it as we can get. Maybe you
wish to pursue the anti-creationist cause elsewhere but methinks that
we would meet up there anyway so what's the point in falling out?
Just as a tip, I did put one person moderated status (now removed) for
the simple reason of strong language (f word etc..). It was just to get
that person to calm down and reflect for a few hours (which he is very
good at.)
As you are aware, there is a poll open until tomorrow on whether we go
to a closed user group. Basically it looks as if we will. Only one
person objects to it.
Kind Regards
Roger Stanyard
2548
vulcannuk
Re: Made a video
05/09/2006 12:02:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@> wrote:
> >
> > Here is the youtube.com viewing. It downloads faster.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj31S2-Pa_E
>
> Hello Stefan,
>
> Yep, that's a great video and I think we need more of them. I
think
> that you have got a natural talent there. It is actually very well
> rounded.
>
> I'd like to post the URL of the video onto a couple of places on
our
> web site.
>
> Would you mind?
>
> Roger
Not at all. Thanks for the comments. I seemed to have gotten to
Mcquoid though. Check out my guestbook (again). He's went a bit
nuts, nevemind childish. here is an example:
Marmite is wrong
Am I marmiteaphobic?
He's also asked if i am homosexual. I know its him as its the same
ip address as when he posted before. I think he also said "me".
Stefan
2549
oeditor
Re: Some Site Rules
05/09/2006 12:15:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>[to Andy Shill]
> Maybe you
> wish to pursue the anti-creationist cause elsewhere but methinks that
> we would meet up there anyway
But Andy had written:
"I'm not an anti-creationist."
I read him rather as an observer, just involved enough to be a bit
protective of the ant-hill he's watching.
Brian
2550
Roger Stanyard
Re: Made a video
05/09/2006 12:29:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "vulcannuk" <vulcannuk@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is the youtube.com viewing. It downloads faster.
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj31S2-Pa_E
> >
> > Hello Stefan,
> >
> > Yep, that's a great video and I think we need more of them. I
> think
> > that you have got a natural talent there. It is actually very
well
> > rounded.
> >
> > I'd like to post the URL of the video onto a couple of places on
> our
> > web site.
> >
> > Would you mind?
> >
> > Roger
>
>
>
> Not at all. Thanks for the comments. I seemed to have gotten to
> Mcquoid though. Check out my guestbook (again). He's went a bit
> nuts, nevemind childish. here is an example:
> Marmite is wrong
> Am I marmiteaphobic?
> He's also asked if i am homosexual. I know its him as its the same
> ip address as when he posted before. I think he also said "me".
>
> Stefan
>
Stefan,
You have got him worried! That's a big step in the right direction.
Roger
