1901
Timothy Chase
Some Personal Quotes (Re: Re: truth)
26/07/2006 18:04:00
On 26/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Joe Cooper <joe0727@...> wrote:
> >
> > David W. Key, director of Baptist Studies at the Candler School of
> > Theology at Emory, put it more starkly. "The real underlying issue is
> > that fundamentalism in the Southern Baptist form is incompatible with
> > higher education,'' Professor Key said. "In fundamentalism, you have
> all
> > the truths. In education, you're searching for truths
> Thanks Joe,
>
> This is just the sort of short one-liner statement we need to collect
> together to get out message over to the public.
>
> I'll start drawing up a list of such messages which, hopefully, we will
> then be able to draw upon.
>
> Keep 'em coming. If anyone else has any such one-liners/short
> statements we can use, it would be much appreciated. Is there anywhere
> in the anti-creationist world where such a list has been drawn up?
The following are quotes from either essays or emails I have written.
If anyone has any use for them, I wouldn't mind having them attibuted
to Anon or providing the address of the messages themselves.
Alternatively, I would be willing to look up the material they first
appeared in, or even write essays which elaborate upon them or turn
the passages in which they appeared into complete essays if this would
be of any value. Likewise, I know that there are quotes from others
which express much the same ideas and I could look those up on the web
a little later.
If anyone would share these with some people (in personal
correspondence, for example), feel free -- the fragments might give
them some ideas. Alternatively, looking at them might help some to
recall similar quotes, thoughts or insights. Likewise, if one likes
the idea expressed in a particular quote, I may be able find essays
which we could reference which express similar thoughts.
Regarding science and religion:
"There are a great many religious individuals who believe that God is
not something which one can fit inside a test-tube, and that it is a
mistake to treat their belief in God as an empirical hypothesis to be
tested inside a lab or a class devoted to science."
*
"Even if physics were to somehow reach back further than the first
trillionth of a second (which it has already reached), back before the
Big Bang itself and somehow demonstrate that there is an eternal
cascade of universes, this would in no way touch the essence of
religion. There would be no threat to the religious view that God is
both the transcendental and immanent cause of all of existence.
Empirical science can in no way touch this or threaten such a faith --
it can only destroy those faiths which render themselves vulnerable by
making claims contrary to empirical science itself."
**
Regarding the nature of science:
"Empirical science makes mistakes. It is falliblistic. But it is
also self-correcting. The study of physics, chemistry, geology,
astronomy, and biology have been converging on the same unified view
of our world for quite some time -- different, independent lines of
investigation supporting the same conclusions...."
*
"New evidence and once highly-controversial theories were fitting
together like the continents once had. They were providing us with a
unified view of our world. ... the history of science has shown a
remarkable degree of interdependence between distinct theories
existing in highly disparate areas of human knowledge."
*
"In empirical science, and more broadly, in human knowledge itself,
when you have multiple, independent lines of evidence leading to the
same conclusion, the justification for that conclusion is far greater
than that which it would receive from any one or few lines of evidence
or investigation considered apart from the rest. The evidence and the
multiple lines of investigation provide considerable justification for
their independent conclusion, but taken as a whole, the justification
for the the conclusion that all life is the result of a process of
evolution leading from common ancestors and branching out into
different descendant species is so overwhelming that for anyone with a
shred of rationality and a shred of honesty, it cannot be denied."
**
Regarding the incompatibility of creationism with modern science:
"A creationism with a truly limitless god is as a matter of principle
entirely untestable."
*
"They wish to claim that God is both omniscient (all-knowing) and
omnipotent (all-powerful). However, to make specific predictions,
they must assume that God is of a specific nature, that he is limited.
Thus for example, when they claim that the reasons for the genetic
similarities between different species is due to the fact that once
God 'found something which worked,' he 'didn't want to reinvent the
wheel,' they are assuming, at least implicitly, that God is limited in
his powers of thought and action. He couldn't 'waste his time' or
'resources' on the 'discovery' of some alternate way of doing things
and then implementing that approach. Thus if they attempt to create a
genuine scientific theory of creationism, their God becomes finite.
But they would find this entirely unacceptable."
**
Regarding Fundamentalists and their view of modern science:
"... you are in a state of dogmatic doubt and denial -- similar to
that of an Omphalosian who believes that the universe was created five
seconds ago, that anything (including memories) which would indicate
otherwise to any rational, moral being being was simply placed there
to create appearance that the world is older -- and since you can
coherently maintain this in the face of all genuine evidence to the
contrary, you refuse to consider anything as evidence against your
beliefs."
*
"If someone wishes to do so, they can deny that the universe existed
five minutes ago or five seconds ago -- and claim that all evidence to
the contrary (including memories) were put in place there by either
God or the Devil. But two words which describe quite well that kind
of tactic: 'denial' and 'evasion.' Typically, such a tactic is done
in defense of dogma."
*
"As usual, you are evading the discoveries of science for dogmatic
reasons, then criticising science for not being dogma. There is no
Darwinism/Evolutionism. There was Darwin's 'Theory of Evolution,' but
now it is mostly of historical interest. Today there is modern
evolutionary biology -- and a whole host of theories within this
science, some of them quite narrow in their scope, others much wider.
[When one quotes later evolutionary biologists criticizing] either
Darwin's theory or mainstream evolutionary theory as a means of
criticizing evolutionary biology itself, you might as well be quoting
modern physicists explaining why Galileo and Copernicus have been
superceded by modern physics as a means of discrediting physics and
modern science itself."
*
"In essence, what we are dealing with is what the German's termed a
'Weltanshauung' which has very near its core a highly improbable
theory of a vast conspiracy stretching over centuries -- and a small,
fairly uneducated group of individuals who, despite all of the
evidence for the technological and scientific advances of our
civilization -- somehow claim to be in 'the know' that this is all
some great fraud to delude everyone into presumably believing there is
no God -- which this group presumably 'believes' -- in order to defend
their own extreme religious views."
1902
Timothy Chase
An essay I would like to contribute...
26/07/2006 18:27:00
What follows is an essay I wrote some time ago which I would be
willing to contribute to any organisation which might have use of it.
To adapt it to a UK audience, I have included three suggested edits.
Religion and Science
The religion vs. evolution debate has broken out once again, and
certain groups are trying to get their religious views into high
school classrooms [the following may be omitted: "-- this time in the
thinly-veiled form of "intelligent design," a broad tent where young
earth creationists, old earth creationists, and people who simply
prefer to remain more abstract can join together in common cause"]. In
an online discussion devoted to the issue, one individual said that he
couldn't really understand what the controversy was about. He argued
that if God is omniscient, omnipotent, exists outside of the world He
creates, and expects us to believe in Him through faith alone, then
surely He would not have left any traces in His creation which would
provide an empirical alternative to that faith. Viewed this way, the
world discovered through science -- including evolution and the big
bang -- is simply the divinely opaque means through which God created
the world we now see.
I agreed. Properly understood, there is no conflict between religion
and science: each deals with different human needs (and for some
people, philosophy may satisfy the same needs that religion serves for
others). The realm of empirical knowledge belongs to science, whereas
religion ministers to the need for normative guidance. The question of
whether or not God exists lies beyond the realm of empirical science,
and properly belongs to religion and philosophy. Many scientists
(including a good number of evolutionists) are in fact religious --
they simply do not let their religious views interfere with the quest
for empirical knowledge. (For one example, see the "Science and
Religion" interview with Kenneth R. Miller.) Properly, scientists will
respect these beliefs of their religious colleagues, realizing they
may very well provide those colleagues with the moral guidance which
makes them better scientists. The importance of moral guidance, and,
more specifically, the moral courage to deal with the ever-present
possibility of failure in both the existential and cognitive realms,
is not to be underestimated.
In the existential realm, religion properly provides the individual
with the moral courage to act despite the possibility of failure,
where failure can sometimes mean the possibility of actual death, and
the fear of failure itself can often be experienced as such. Likewise,
the fear of being mistaken -- where being mistaken may threaten our
beliefs about who we are -- is at times experienced as a threat much
like death itself. Here, too, there is need for moral courage,
although of a somewhat different kind. Properly, religion encourages
in its own way the view that while recognizing one's mistakes may be
experienced prospectively as a form of death, the act itself brings a
form of rebirth and self-transcendence, giving one the courage to
revise one's beliefs when confronted with new evidence.
However, when people attempt to mix the realms of religion and science
-- attempting, for example, to use science to promote a given
religious or philosophic view -- in the long run, given the very
nature of the relationship between religion and science, the results
will be the reverse of what is intended, and may end up damaging what
in fact they hold most dear. For example, a proponent of science who
believes that faith in God is absurd in the age of Science may end up
creating a religious backlash against science itself among those who
take a different view. But properly, empirical science cannot speak of
the metaphysics of that which lies beyond the empirical realm and the
ontology required by its naturalistic explanations.
Alternatively, those who attempt to use science to prove the existence
of God will end up with a God susceptible to empirical criticism, when
belief in God should be a matter of faith. A religious view rooted in
science will be grounded in the shifting sands of scientific
discourse, placed in constant threat of being uprooted by the newest
scientific discoveries. For the better among those who initially
accept this substitute for true faith, such a view will at first seem
intoxicating, but will soon prove poisonous to their religious
beliefs.
For others, the proper religious stance becomes transformed, and the
proper intellectual courage to revise one's beliefs when confronted
with new evidence is transmuted into its polar opposite. Intellectual
"courage" becomes the will and the power to challenge, doubt and deny
any body of empirical evidence or knowledge whenever it comes into
conflict with their religious or political beliefs. At this point, one
of the most fundamental ethical virtues -- honesty -- has itself
become undermined, and with it all the virtues which would normally be
encouraged and taught through the moral guidance of religion.
Properly, religious leaders who understand what is at stake will
oppose "empirical" faith both for the contradiction which it embodies
and as the antithesis of the true faith they seek to protect and
nourish.
[May end here or continue]
When properly understood, this unnecessary conflict between religion
and science will be consigned to the oblivion it so richly deserves.
Yet more could undoubtedly be done so as to avoid such
misunderstandings and consequent conflicts in the future. Science has
been and continues to be responsible for a great deal of humanity's
material and intellectual progress. Religion is responsible for
humanity's moral and spiritual guidance. The roles they serve are
complementary and to a significant extent in today's world,
interdependent. Religion and science each have their own inner
dynamic, but religious and scientific communities share a common
concern for humanity as a whole. If religion and science are to
perform their proper functions in human society, they must remain
separate, with their fundamental natures respected. But still there
can be dialogue.
[May end here or continue]
Some time ago, Pope John Paul II visited with biologists to discuss
evolution and then ended official Catholic Church opposition to
evolutionary theory. This was a good beginning, but unfortunately
there wasn't much follow-up. If a dialogue were to begin between the
religious and scientific communities, one born out of mutual
understanding and respect, such a dialogue could serve the interests
of both communities and perhaps even the interests of humanity as a
whole. As one interesting possibility, a scientist of the same
denomination as a given church might occasionally make a good guest
speaker, particularly if he were to discuss the role that religious
belief has played in his life and work, and he were to share a few of
the more interesting, recent discoveries in his particular field.
In a sense, such religious scientists might serve as bidirectional
ambassadors between the two communities, and would deserve honored
places within both. If properly promoted, such guest speakers might
help to boost church attendance, particularly if they are good
speakers. And perhaps when church services are not being held,
churches could make available rooms where scientists could discuss
their work with the public, and even their concerns for some of the
problems which currently face humanity. This could also serve as good
public relations for the religious and scientific communities as a
whole. I myself do not know where a dialogue between these communities
would lead -- this would be up to the participants. But I have little
doubt that it could become quite interesting and enlightening for
everyone involved.
*
PS If anyone of any faith asks what the religious beliefs of the
author are, simply tell them that he believes that God is nothing more
nor less than the unified lawful nature of existence. I hope that
this will be good enough. (Incidentally, the essay above was partly
inspired by Plato's "The Republic.")
1903
vulcannuk
Teaching of creationism..
26/07/2006 22:25:00
I'm not sure if any of you have come accross this document before, but
after some lengthy research I have managed to find it. Its a letter to
Peter Vardy about the teaching of creationism. He basicaly says, well,
as long as you pretend not to teach it while we are there, who gives a
shit. Check it out: http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?
fuseaction=pubs.displayfile&id=3255&type=pdf
1904
Timothy Chase
Re: Teaching of creationism..
26/07/2006 22:45:00
On 26/07/06, vulcannuk <vulcannuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if any of you have come accross this document before, but
> after some lengthy research I have managed to find it. Its a letter to
> Peter Vardy about the teaching of creationism. He basicaly says, well,
> as long as you pretend not to teach it while we are there, who gives a
> shit. Check it out: http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?
> fuseaction=pubs.displayfile&id=3255&type=pdf
I have never seen that before - and it looks marvelous!
Particularly this line:
"In response to your query about the inspection of science in schools
that are obliged to follow the National Curriculum programmes of
study, much depends on which aspects of science are being taught at
the time inspectors visit the school."
1905
BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
New file uploaded to BlackShadow
26/07/2006 22:49:00
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the BlackShadow
group.
File : /3255.pdf
Uploaded by : rob_o_roso <timothychase@gmail.com>
Description : Vardy on Teaching Creationism 2002
You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.comhttp://files/3255.pdf
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,
rob_o_roso <timothychase@gmail.com>
1906
Timothy Chase
Re: Teaching of creationism..
26/07/2006 22:51:00
PS At least with Internet Explorer, it wouldn't let you save, so I
put a copy in BlackShadow's files.
1907
Ian Lowe
RE: Teaching of creationism..
27/07/2006 00:08:00
This is pretty powerful stuff - it's clear from the subtext that Vardy has
"explained" this whole "teach the controversy" crap we see being pushed by
the Discovery Institute.
Anyone more familiar with FOI rules - can we demand to see a copy of the
letter sent to the inspector under FOI provisions?
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of vulcannuk
Sent: 26 July 2006 22:25
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Teaching of creationism..
I'm not sure if any of you have come accross this document before, but after
some lengthy research I have managed to find it. Its a letter to Peter Vardy
about the teaching of creationism. He basicaly says, well, as long as you
pretend not to teach it while we are there, who gives a shit. Check it out:
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?
fuseaction=pubs.displayfile&id=3255&type=pdf
1908
BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
New file uploaded to BlackShadow
27/07/2006 00:21:00
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the BlackShadow
group.
File : /3254.pdf
Uploaded by : rob_o_roso <timothychase@gmail.com>
Description : Letter to Inspector from Sir Peter Vardy
You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.comhttp://files/3254.pdf
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
rob_o_roso <timothychase@gmail.com>
1909
Ian Lowe
RE: Teaching of creationism..
27/07/2006 00:18:00
Okay, I have checked, and this should be okay under FOI - I have lodged an
official request for the letter this is in response to (the one Vardy sent).
If I am correct, this will provide a pretty clear "smoking gun" which can be
used to bring some unwanted attention on Vardy's nasty little back room
dealings.
Text of my request:
I am carrying out research into the controversy surrounding the teaching of
creationism in the science classroom at the City Academy schools run by Sir
Peter Vardy. I am particularly concerned by the letter from David Bell to
Peter Vardy dated 7th May 2002 (published on your website as "ID number
3255").
This letter makes reference to a letter dated 23rd April 2002, from Peter
Vardy to Mike Tomlinson, however, I cannot find this letter on the website.
I would be obliged if you could provide me with a copy of this letter, as I
feel it is required to gain a complete picture of the communication between
Ofsted and Peter Vardy. An electronic copy will be perfectly acceptable.
Thanks for your help in this matter.
Ian.
1910
Timothy Chase
Re: Teaching of creationism..
27/07/2006 00:24:00
On 26/07/06, Ian Lowe <ian@scottishatheistcouncil.org.uk> wrote:
>
> This is pretty powerful stuff - it's clear from the subtext that Vardy has
> "explained" this whole "teach the controversy" crap we see being pushed by
> the Discovery Institute.
>
> Anyone more familiar with FOI rules - can we demand to see a copy of the
> letter sent to the inspector under FOI provisions?
>
> Ian.
vulcannuk found a goldmine!
Now that we know it is there, here is where we can find more:
Ofsted publications beginning with E
http://snipurl.com/txe2
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?fuseaction=pubs.list&sortBy=titl\
e&letter=E&page=2
1911
Ian Lowe
RE: Teaching of creationism..
27/07/2006 00:24:00
*sigh* That'll teach me not to do this stuff whilst sleepy - Vardy's letter
is on the website too..
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?fuseaction=pubs.displayfile&
id=3254&type=pdf
http://tinyurl.com/rqu2w
I.
1912
Timothy Chase
Statements by Scientists and Theologians
27/07/2006 01:10:00
These might be of interest...
Numerous quotes:
Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
by Laurence Moran
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
*
Clergy Project: An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science
http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/religion_science_collaboration.htm
Sermons written by members and friends of the Clergy Letter Project:
http://www.uwosh.edu/colleges/cols/rel_resources.htm
1913
Timothy Chase
Another Vardy? Bob Edmiston
27/07/2006 03:42:00
Internationalist
Gov't 'Insensitive' to Asia's Religious Tensions
By Kalinga Seneviratne, IPS, 23 June 2000
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/252.html
Grace Academy...
Fundamentalist education raises eyebrows in Britain (U.K. Gov't
sponsors Christian schools...)
Financial Times | 1 Aug 2005 | Frederick Studemann
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1455237/posts
Pentacostal.
Hadn't heard of him before.
Is he worth tracking?
1914
Timothy Chase
Re: Teaching of creationism..
27/07/2006 03:45:00
On 26/07/06, vulcannuk <vulcannuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if any of you have come accross this document before, but
> after some lengthy research I have managed to find it. Its a letter to
> Peter Vardy about the teaching of creationism. He basicaly says, well,
> as long as you pretend not to teach it while we are there, who gives a
> shit. Check it out: http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?
> fuseaction=pubs.displayfile&id=3255&type=pdf
What you sent in got me to looking. The following seems to be a
personal website. It is out of date, but has quotes from papers with
dates which one could look up if need be. Provides some timelines.
Ofsted rejects re-inspection
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/lt/docs/called26.htm
from
Learning Together . . . (updated last in 2003)
Resources for the campaign against faith-based schools
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/lt/
1915
Timothy Chase
From the Horse''s Mouth: What the Christian Institute really believes
27/07/2006 03:56:00
You probably already knew about this, but:
Replicates Google cache, originally from The Christian Institute...
Saturday, January 3, 2004
The Teaching of Science
A Biblical Perspective
(c)2000 The Christian Institute
A lecture given by Steven Layfield at Emmanuel College, Gateshead on
21 September 2000
http://www.darwinwars.com/lunatic/liars/layfield.html
1916
BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
New file uploaded to BlackShadow
27/07/2006 04:15:00
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the BlackShadow
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1917
Timothy Chase
UK Creationists are Incestuous
27/07/2006 05:36:00
Most of these websites correspond to physical churches. The sites
turn up again and again links pages. I have included a few from the
US at the bottom which also turn up some times.
European Institute of Protestant Studies (N. Ireland)
http://www.ianpaisley.org
Burning Bush Site (N. Ireland)
http://www.ivanfoster.org
Let the Bible Speak (Radio ministry - N. Ireland)
http://www.ltbs.org
Bristol FPC (SW England)
http://www.geocities.com/bristolfpc
Coleraine FPC (N. Ireland)
http://www.colerainefpc.org
Markethill FPC (N. Ireland)
http://www.freepres-markethill.org
Coragarry FPC (N. Ireland)
http://homepage.eircom.net/~coragarryfreechurch/index.html
Magherafelt FPC (N. Ireland)
http://www.mfpc.org
Mourne FPC (Kilkeel, N. Ireland)
http://www.mournefpc.co.uk
Newtownards FPC (N. Ireland)
http://www.newtownardsfpc.org/history.html
Maurice Roberts Sermons (Scotland)
http://www.bible-sermons.org.uk
Banner of Truth Trust (Scotland/US)
http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk
Lord's Day Observance Society: (UK)
http://www.lordsday.co.uk
Eternity Where? (N. Ireland)
http://www.EternityWhere.com
Ballee Mission Hall (N. Ireland)
http://www.ballee.org
Calvary Church (Liverpool):
http://www.calvarychurch.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Home%20page.htm
*
US Associates:
Proclaiming the Gospel (Texas)
http://www.pro-gospel.org
Lehigh FPC (Allentown, PA, USA)
http://www.lehighfree.org
Sermon Audio (US)
http://www.sermonaudio.com
1918
Roger Stanyard
Re: Teaching of creationism..
27/07/2006 07:07:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@...> wrote:
>
>
Thanks Ian,
You've done a great job. It seems to me that the two letters were
directly related to the 2002 Estelle Morris letter (the one I keep
harping on about). Bascially the Estelle Morris letter and the Vardy
letter were aimed at clearing the grounds for teaching creationism;
they were closely timed together and had the same objective.
Looks like more evidence is emerging of a coordinated fundie campaign
at the time.
We already now know that one of the names on the Estelle Morris
letter was an active and senior member of the Christian Institute,
one of the key players (if not the key player) in getting creationism
taught in Vardy schools.
Basically the Estelle Morris letter was pressure on the mechanic and
the Vardy letter on the oily rag - one to the policy maker and one to
the policy implementer.
My guess is that, in practice, the policy maker may have been over-
ruled in this one. It's clear that she soon resigned because of
interference from the Prime Minister's office and the person involved
there was probably Andrew Adonis. He was then special advisor to the
Prime Minister. Note that the Estlelle Morris letter was also send to
Adonis and the head of Ofsted.
Roger
> *sigh* That'll teach me not to do this stuff whilst sleepy -
Vardy's letter
> is on the website too..
>
> http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/publications/index.cfm?
fuseaction=pubs.displayfile&
> id=3254&type=pdf
>
> http://tinyurl.com/rqu2w
>
> I.
>
1919
Roger Stanyard
Re: UK Creationists are Incestuous
27/07/2006 07:20:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
<timothychase@...> wrote:
>
Note that they are mostly in Northern Ireland. I just found out thta
Nigel McQuoid comes from Belfast which, no doubt, accounts for a lot!
This is a privince that is well and truely stuck in the 17th century
religious mindset.
Maurice Roberts is, IIRC, one of the members of Truth in Science. The
Lord's Day Observance Society looks as if it has been infiltrated by
fundies (see my work passim).
I'll take a look at the Bristol and Liverpool churches later.
Roger
> Most of these websites correspond to physical churches. The sites
> turn up again and again links pages. I have included a few from the
> US at the bottom which also turn up some times.
>
> European Institute of Protestant Studies (N. Ireland)
> http://www.ianpaisley.org
>
> Burning Bush Site (N. Ireland)
> http://www.ivanfoster.org
>
> Let the Bible Speak (Radio ministry - N. Ireland)
> http://www.ltbs.org
>
> Bristol FPC (SW England)
> http://www.geocities.com/bristolfpc
>
> Coleraine FPC (N. Ireland)
> http://www.colerainefpc.org
>
> Markethill FPC (N. Ireland)
> http://www.freepres-markethill.org
>
> Coragarry FPC (N. Ireland)
> http://homepage.eircom.net/~coragarryfreechurch/index.html
>
> Magherafelt FPC (N. Ireland)
> http://www.mfpc.org
>
> Mourne FPC (Kilkeel, N. Ireland)
> http://www.mournefpc.co.uk
>
> Newtownards FPC (N. Ireland)
> http://www.newtownardsfpc.org/history.html
>
> Maurice Roberts Sermons (Scotland)
> http://www.bible-sermons.org.uk
>
> Banner of Truth Trust (Scotland/US)
> http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk
>
> Lord's Day Observance Society: (UK)
> http://www.lordsday.co.uk
>
> Eternity Where? (N. Ireland)
> http://www.EternityWhere.com
>
> Ballee Mission Hall (N. Ireland)
> http://www.ballee.org
>
> Calvary Church (Liverpool):
> http://www.calvarychurch.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Home%20page.htm
>
> *
>
>
> US Associates:
>
> Proclaiming the Gospel (Texas)
> http://www.pro-gospel.org
>
> Lehigh FPC (Allentown, PA, USA)
> http://www.lehighfree.org
>
> Sermon Audio (US)
> http://www.sermonaudio.com
>
1920
Roger Stanyard
Re: UK Creationists are Incestuous
27/07/2006 07:31:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
> <timothychase@> wrote:
> >
I just found out thta
> Nigel McQuoid comes from Belfast which, no doubt, accounts for a
lot!
I've also just found out that the schools minister at the time of the
Vardy letter was Stephen Timms; he appears to have been kept out of
this. By a quirk of history, I went to school with Timms. He was,
IIRC, a year below me at Farnborough Grammar School.
Roger
> This is a privince that is well and truely stuck in the 17th
century
> religious mindset.
>
> Maurice Roberts is, IIRC, one of the members of Truth in Science.
The
> Lord's Day Observance Society looks as if it has been infiltrated
by
> fundies (see my work passim).
>
> I'll take a look at the Bristol and Liverpool churches later.
>
> Roger
>
>
> > Most of these websites correspond to physical churches. The sites
> > turn up again and again links pages. I have included a few from
the
> > US at the bottom which also turn up some times.
> >
> > European Institute of Protestant Studies (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.ianpaisley.org
> >
> > Burning Bush Site (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.ivanfoster.org
> >
> > Let the Bible Speak (Radio ministry - N. Ireland)
> > http://www.ltbs.org
> >
> > Bristol FPC (SW England)
> > http://www.geocities.com/bristolfpc
> >
> > Coleraine FPC (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.colerainefpc.org
> >
> > Markethill FPC (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.freepres-markethill.org
> >
> > Coragarry FPC (N. Ireland)
> > http://homepage.eircom.net/~coragarryfreechurch/index.html
> >
> > Magherafelt FPC (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.mfpc.org
> >
> > Mourne FPC (Kilkeel, N. Ireland)
> > http://www.mournefpc.co.uk
> >
> > Newtownards FPC (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.newtownardsfpc.org/history.html
> >
> > Maurice Roberts Sermons (Scotland)
> > http://www.bible-sermons.org.uk
> >
> > Banner of Truth Trust (Scotland/US)
> > http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk
> >
> > Lord's Day Observance Society: (UK)
> > http://www.lordsday.co.uk
> >
> > Eternity Where? (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.EternityWhere.com
> >
> > Ballee Mission Hall (N. Ireland)
> > http://www.ballee.org
> >
> > Calvary Church (Liverpool):
> > http://www.calvarychurch.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Home%20page.htm
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > US Associates:
> >
> > Proclaiming the Gospel (Texas)
> > http://www.pro-gospel.org
> >
> > Lehigh FPC (Allentown, PA, USA)
> > http://www.lehighfree.org
> >
> > Sermon Audio (US)
> > http://www.sermonaudio.com
> >
>
1921
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: UK Creationists are Incestuous
27/07/2006 08:04:00
On 26/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
> <timothychase@...> wrote:
> >
> Note that they are mostly in Northern Ireland. I just found out thta
> Nigel McQuoid comes from Belfast which, no doubt, accounts for a lot!
> This is a privince that is well and truely stuck in the 17th century
> religious mindset.
>
> Maurice Roberts is, IIRC, one of the members of Truth in Science. The
> Lord's Day Observance Society looks as if it has been infiltrated by
> fundies (see my work passim).
>
> I'll take a look at the Bristol and Liverpool churches later.
Just found it interesting - some of the sites have motion scrolls
about upcoming meetings and whatnot - and it all seems rather small
world. I looked at today as a kind of a break from looking up source
material for my own projects. What got me started though was the
letter uncovered by vulcannuk - and then it was just one thing leading
to another.
Incidentally, the reason why I went ahead and sent the stuff to the
list is just in case anyone wishes to follow a lead. Not like you
should have to do all the lifting. I will dig some more a little
later myself - not that I will be all that good at telling the gems
from the junk.
Take care.
1922
JAF
Anybody know who this is?
27/07/2006 08:51:00
I received this email a couple of days ago.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anarch/loonyemail.htm
I wondered if anyone else had, or if anyone knew who's responsible.
I get the feeling it's not an opportunist spam, as it contains my email
address and no others.
--
JAF
anarchatntlworldfullstopcom
1923
Roger Stanyard
Re: Anybody know who this is?
27/07/2006 09:47:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, JAF <anarch@...> wrote:
>
JAF,
It appears to be written by an American called Melinda Kennedy who, ot
appears, is a Muslim and appears to also be a creationist. She appears
to be a supporter of the Turkish creationist group
http://www.harunyahya.com/index.php which basically re-hashes and
republishes stuff from the Institute for Creation Research. The ICR
brags about it.
Methinks it is worth keeping a watch on Kennedy.
Roger
>
> I received this email a couple of days ago.
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anarch/loonyemail.htm
>
> I wondered if anyone else had, or if anyone knew who's responsible.
>
> I get the feeling it's not an opportunist spam, as it contains my
email
> address and no others.
> --
> JAF
> anarchatntlworldfullstopcom
>
1924
Roger Stanyard
John Burn
27/07/2006 09:55:00
I'm trying to build up my database on who's who amongst British fundies
but amhaving difficult in getting together a profile of John Burn. the
stuff available on Internet isn't very good.
All I basically know is that he was in on the ground in starting the
Christian Institute and is, by background, a school teacher (why are
the UK fundies predominantly school teachers?). I know he was head of
Emmanuel College but don't know where he taught before that or where he
came from. Was he a science teacher?
Is he, like McQuoid, out of the backwaters of Northern Ireland (i.e.
the 17th century).
All help gratefully received. The bio on the Christian Institute's web
site gives little way.
Roger
1925
George Jelliss
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 10:31:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...> wrote:
>
>
> I've a feeling there are LOTS of Americans involved, and, since
> the British AiG went to such lengths to argue that theya re
> NOT American, it seems that they themselves recognize it as
> a looming weakness.
>
> Kepp hammering them on it. Creationism/ID is almost completely an
> American phenomenon, and every other creationist group worldwide
> is funded by and/or founded by Americans.
>
Except that Ken Ham originated in Australia!
AIG (UK) have another American speaker coming over here in 2007.
Carl Kerby a former flight controller recruited by Ken Ham. He
starts his tour at Melbourne Hall in Leicester, which is just a
block from where I live, so I may go to heckle.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/bio.aspx?Speaker_ID=7
Trouble is it's also my landlord's church, and I don't want him
throwing me out. Perhaps I'd better start looking for new digs!
1926
Marc Draco
Re: Another Vardy? Bob Edmiston
27/07/2006 10:39:00
We have an eye on him. He's another car dealer with loads of money and
dumb ideas.
Timothy Chase wrote:
>
> Internationalist
>
> Gov't 'Insensitive' to Asia's Religious Tensions
> By Kalinga Seneviratne, IPS, 23 June 2000
> http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/252.html
> <http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/252.html>
>
> Grace Academy...
>
> Fundamentalist education raises eyebrows in Britain (U.K. Gov't
> sponsors Christian schools...)
> Financial Times | 1 Aug 2005 | Frederick Studemann
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1455237/posts
> <http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1455237/posts>
>
> Pentacostal.
>
> Hadn't heard of him before.
>
> Is he worth tracking?
>
>
£
1927
Roger Stanyard
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 11:51:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...> wrote:
>
> AIG (UK) have another American speaker coming over here in 2007.
> Carl Kerby a former flight controller recruited by Ken Ham. He
> starts his tour at Melbourne Hall in Leicester, which is just a
> block from where I live, so I may go to heckle.
>
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/bio.aspx?Speaker_ID=7
>
> Trouble is it's also my landlord's church, and I don't want him
> throwing me out. Perhaps I'd better start looking for new digs!
>
It looks worse than this. He has got himself into a UK school -
Broadlands School, Keynsham. IIRC Keynsham is in Bristol.
OK, this may now call for some action.
Roger
1928
Roger Stanyard
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 11:55:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@> wrote:
> >
> >
>> AIG (UK) have another American speaker coming over here in 2007.
> Carl Kerby a former flight controller recruited by Ken Ham. He
> starts his tour at Melbourne Hall in Leicester, which is just a
> block from where I live, so I may go to heckle.
>
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/bio.aspx?Speaker_ID=7
>
> Trouble is it's also my landlord's church, and I don't want him
> throwing me out. Perhaps I'd better start looking for new digs!
>
Worse, still, it's a state (secondary school). Kerby appears to have no
background in science whatsoever.
1929
Roger Stanyard
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 12:02:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@> wrote:
> >
>
> AIG (UK) have another American speaker coming over here in 2007.
> Carl Kerby a former flight controller recruited by Ken Ham. He
> starts his tour at Melbourne Hall in Leicester, which is just a
> block from where I live, so I may go to heckle.
>
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/bio.aspx?Speaker_ID=7
>
> Trouble is it's also my landlord's church, and I don't want him
> throwing me out. Perhaps I'd better start looking for new digs!
The devil is in the detail; looks like AiG has gotton itself a new scam
to foist its hocus pocus onto the public. Kerby's diary for his
UK "tour" shows a number of "Creation Days" or "Creation Events". These
are new to me.
Any idea what they are about?
Roger Stanyard
1930
Roger Stanyard
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 12:08:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@> wrote:
> >
> >
>> AIG (UK) have another American speaker coming over here in 2007.
> Carl Kerby a former flight controller recruited by Ken Ham. He
> starts his tour at Melbourne Hall in Leicester, which is just a
> block from where I live, so I may go to heckle.
>
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/bio.aspx?Speaker_ID=7
>
> Trouble is it's also my landlord's church, and I don't want him
> throwing me out. Perhaps I'd better start looking for new digs!
The local contact given for Kerby's event in Keynsham is called David
Brassington. Transpires he is a local councillor (local politician to
Americans) on Keynsham District Council. He also appears to run a
religious bookshop.
I've been checking again the Christian Institute's web site and it
states that "members" should try to become local school governors and
members of Parent Teacher Associations.
1931
oeditor
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 12:26:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> The devil is in the detail; looks like AiG has gotton itself a new
scam > to foist its hocus pocus onto the public. Kerby's diary for his
> UK "tour" shows a number of "Creation Days" or "Creation Events".
These > are new to me.
>
> Any idea what they are about?
>
I suspect they're just convenient labels for whole-day and shorter
get-to-gethers, publicity stunts or whatever.
While I was looking, I found the CRT events diary covering themselves,
AiG and several others. Very short on details, but may be worth
keeping an eye on. It shows our least-favourite chemical engineer in
the States this month, btw. It's also pretty incompetent - all the
events are now past, and no sign of an August list.
http://www.c-r-t.co.uk/events.htm
Brian
1932
oeditor
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 12:30:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "George Jelliss" <gpjnow@...> wrote:
>
> AIG (UK) have another American speaker coming over here in 2007.
> Carl Kerby a former flight controller recruited by Ken Ham.
Flight Controller to the Sky Pilots?
Brian
1933
Roger Stanyard
Re: The Conundrum
27/07/2006 13:19:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
Creation Resources Trust is basiclly a minnow (turnover around £22k a
year and falling); like the Creation Science Movement in Portsmouth
(turnover around £64k), it is going nowhere if you look at its accounts.
It's AiG that I fear; AiG UK is some 40 times the size or CRT (turnover
£800k plus); in turn AiG in the USA (turnover around US$12m IIRC) is
probably 12 times as large again as the UK operation.
Seems to me there is an economic struggle between the four or five main
creationist organisation in the UK and AiG is way out in the lead. Some
doddering old farmer from the depths of sheep shagging county in rural
Somerset is not match for AiG.
It wouldn't surprise me that, in time, both CSM and CRT disappear.
AiG has been clever, even down to locaton in Leicester - that's
basically close to the geographic centre of the UK. Moreover, unlike
CRT, it is in the business of getting its people out in the field
rather than them coming to Leicester. CSM has the handicap of being
based on the South Coast, way away for the "heartland" of creationism
north of the line from the Severn to the Wash. CRT is basically located
nowhere.
The other one that I fear is the Christian Institute; one wonders how
much American expertise, money and advice it has received.
Sooner or later we may also get some real information on Truth in
Science; it would not surprise me that McIntosh's visit to the USA may
be connected with it. McIntosh has suggested that his aim may be to
establish a creationist "museum" in Birmingham.
I'm working hard trying to find a lot of this info but it is not easy.
Roger
>
> While I was looking, I found the CRT events diary covering themselves,
> AiG and several others. Very short on details, but may be worth
> keeping an eye on.
>
1934
Timothy Chase
Re: John Burn
27/07/2006 14:28:00
On 27/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to build up my database on who's who amongst British fundies
> but amhaving difficult in getting together a profile of John Burn. the
> stuff available on Internet isn't very good.
>
> All I basically know is that he was in on the ground in starting the
> Christian Institute and is, by background, a school teacher (why are
> the UK fundies predominantly school teachers?). I know he was head of
> Emmanuel College but don't know where he taught before that or where he
> came from. Was he a science teacher?
>
> Is he, like McQuoid, out of the backwaters of Northern Ireland (i.e.
> the 17th century).
>
> All help gratefully received. The bio on the Christian Institute's web
> site gives little way.
I will look for more, but this is what I found...
John Burn
2002
the Gateshead school's former head teacher
chief education officer for the Vardy Foundation
Daily Telegraph, 31/3/02
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/03/31/ncre31.xml
1996
former Government Education Adviser
Principal of Emmanuel College, Gateshead and Chairman of the Christian Institute
http://www.christian.org.uk/pressreleases/1996/wednesday_6th_november_1996_0001a\
m.htm
1935
Timothy Chase
On John Burn, Nigel McQuoid
27/07/2006 14:53:00
John Burn
2006
Vice-Chairman of Directors at Emmanuel
http://www.emmanuel-schools.org.uk/hattrick.htm
2002
the Gateshead school's former head teacher
chief education officer for the Vardy Foundation
Daily Telegraph, 31/3/02
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/03/31/ncre31.xml
1996
former Government Education Adviser
Principal of Emmanuel College, Gateshead and Chairman of the Christian Institute
http://www.christian.org.uk/pressreleases/1996/wednesday_6th_november_1996_0001a\
m.htm
*
Nigel McQuoid
2000
Principal of Emmanuel College
http://www.emmanuel-schools.org.uk/hattrick.htm
1936
Roger Stanyard
Re: John Burn
27/07/2006 15:02:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase" <timothychase@...>
wrote:
>
This is all stuff that occured long before I started taking a serious
look at the Vardy schools and, no doubt, Marc, Peter and others have a
lot to say about it.
However, the picture that seems to be merging is that Estelle Morris
was basically pushed to one side by Adonis and Blair and the
creationist issue appears to one of the major reasons. I don't know if
the Vardy/creationism affair was the reason that pushed her to resign
or the more general interference from the Prime Minister's Office. If
it is the former, we are beginning to build up a powerful case for
resurrecting the whole issue, especially as Adonis is now an education
minister. (Stephen Timms is now in the Treasury, btw).
I've being sitting for weeks on a draft letter to Estelle Morris, no
thanks to the NSS newsline (i.e. Scott Davidson). The more I can dig up
on this the better. The whole affair is now looking increasingly smelly.
We've probably got until about mid-September before it's worthwhile
finally deciding to send the letter to Morris - in effect the
Westminster shooting match is now largely closed down for the summer
recess.
Timms describes himself as a Christian Socialist which almost certainly
means he is no fundamentalist; I can't recall him at Grammar school
being into religion, though.
Roger
> 2002
> the Gateshead school's former head teacher
> chief education officer for the Vardy Foundation
> Daily Telegraph, 31/3/02
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
xml=/news/2002/03/31/ncre31.xml
>
> 1996
> former Government Education Adviser
> Principal of Emmanuel College, Gateshead and Chairman of the
Christian Institute
>
http://www.christian.org.uk/pressreleases/1996/wednesday_6th_november_19
96_0001am.htm
>
1937
Timothy Chase
Nice Quote from Burn and McQuoid: Evolution is a Faith Position
27/07/2006 15:28:00
In a lecture co-authored by Mr Burn and Mr McQuoid, they observe:
"Clearly schools are required to teach evolutionary theory. We agree
that they should teach evolution as a theory and faith position...
Clearly also schools should teach the creation theory as literally
depicted in Genesis. Ultimately, both creation and evolution are faith
positions."
Saturday March 9, 2002
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371165,00.html
1938
oeditor
Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 16:09:00
This is stuff I've gathered today for myself. Probably much is already
known, but look at the very end for a possible Blackpool link.
BTW, I'd like to set up a simple database linking organisations and
individuals. Sort of hypercard thing, with links between cards. Can
anyone recommend one? I'm supposed to be able to do SQL, but my mind
won't work in this heat!
Brian
Biblical Creation Society
http://www.c-r-t.co.uk/events.htm
Registered to Edward Howell - address withheld as
a non-trading individual.
(registrant type: uk individual)
Registrar SCHLUND
ie Schlund & Partener - German outfit with German
name-servers.
http://registrar.schlund.info
Main propagandists:
1)Paul Garner - seems to lecture approx weekly
usually in the lower half f the country but doing
NYorks in October (details to follow*). Went to
prosyletise in Albania for a week in April
*listed without more details at
2) John Peet - BCS Travelling Secretary. Doesn't
travel much, diary stopped in May 06
http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/talks/itineraryPeet.htm
3) John Ray - pseudonymous diarist supposedly
commenting on current scientific issues. Such as
those raised by Thomas Huxley!
http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/commentary.html
Evangelical Movement Of Wales
http://www.emw.org.uk/
The EMW is a charity, registered in the UK,
number 222407
Turnover ~£1M for 04/05
Magazine available for pdf download, some earlier
as html. Seemingly none for 2006
05/05 "Creation Issue" has article by Stuart
Burgess, Reader in Engineering Design, Bristol U.
Author of "Origin of Man" published by Dayone
Publications.
www.dayone.co.uk
Ryelands Rd, Leominster HR6 8NZ
(dayone christian ministries, with usa toll-free
phone no.)
"The human body is a masterpiece of design. No
human designer can suggest any improvement to the
design of man. The human body bears testament to
the wisdom of the Creator and his care for man."
Oh yeah???
Biblical Creation Ministries
Ch No 1094782
MR EDWARD JOHN CABLE WILSON
19 SAND STREET
SOHAM
ELY
CAMBRIDGESHIRE
CB7 5AA
01353 720594
Turnover ~£40K 04/05
T/A Answers In Genesis =
Creation Science Foundation (UK)
T/0 ~£400-500K, but 04/05 income twice that.
*listed without more details at
http://www.samchapman.f2s.com/AnEindex.htm -
supposedly adamandeveit.info Evidently a
redirect. .info reg to Samuel Chapman, 9 Osborne
Drive, Clayton-le-Wood, Chorley PR6 7SR
- near enought to be one of the Blackpool gang.
1939
Timothy Chase
Guardian 2005: What a Creation.... (Vardy, Burn, McQuoid)
27/07/2006 16:46:00
From the Guardian:
What a creation ...
Saturday January 15, 2005
http://snipurl.com/tymk
http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,,1389937,00.html
*
Most notoriously, Vardy schools accord equal importance to both
creationism and theories of evolution. According to McQuoid, though
state schools are required to teach evolutionary theory, "also,
schools should teach the creation theory as literally depicted in
Genesis".
*
When parents asked Burn about creationism, he appeared baffled ("He
just said, 'I don't know what you mean by creationism.' He asked us
what it was"). At the parents' consultation meeting, Tracy quoted a
speech Burn had given in which he had said that teachers at Vardy
schools should be "full-time Christian workers"; he told her that it
was a personal view not necessarily reflected in the Foundation's
plans for Conisbrough and Denaby. "At the first parents' meeting," Kay
recalled, "somebody asked David Vardy why they were contributing only
£2m while the government put in so much more. And he said, 'Well, I
can always take my money elsewhere. I can go and buy myself a yacht.'"
*
Unfortunately, that's only half the story. Vardy's Christian beliefs
are shared by John Burn, sometime head of Emmanuel College and now
education adviser to the Vardy Foundation, and Nigel McQuoid,
principal at the King's Academy. Papers they have co-authored give a
flavour of their stance: "If relativist philosophy is acceptable, then
sadomasochism, bestiality and self-abuse are to be considered as
wholesome activities," runs one. "It is very important that young
people begin to realise that activities which are 'private and
personal' often degrade oneself and are not necessarily good and
acceptable." By way of clarifying the latter position, McQuoid
recently told the Observer that "the Bible says clearly that
homosexual activity is against God's design. I would indicate that to
young folk."
1940
Timothy Chase
Re: Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 17:07:00
On 27/07/06, oeditor <b-jordan@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> This is stuff I've gathered today for myself. Probably much is already
> known, but look at the very end for a possible Blackpool link.
>
> BTW, I'd like to set up a simple database linking organisations and
> individuals. Sort of hypercard thing, with links between cards. Can
> anyone recommend one? I'm supposed to be able to do SQL, but my mind
> won't work in this heat!
>
> Brian
I was thinking along the same lines.
Depending upon what you want, Excel might be enough. Alternatively, I
have been working on a program in C# to recreate an earlier program I
had written in hypercard. Allows me to hierarchically organise my
notes, cross-reference, dynamically change the hierarchy, graft
branches with all of the branches coming off of them while preserving
the bridge-like links between distant branches.
With the original program, I ultimately had over 2000 type-written
pages of material, including an 80 page paper critiquing Kant's "The
Critique of Pure Reason," an 80 page paper critiquing Descartes' "Six
Meditations on First Philosophy," a 170 page paper critiquing one of
Hume's works, and 250 page manuscript tentatively entitled "Twist of
Fate: from early 20th century empiricism to the rebirth of
traditional philosophy." I exported the original hypertext as XML and
now have it all available on my PC - as the files which the new
program works with.
Currently I am using it to organise the technical articles on
evolution which I am getting off the web - well, at least the text.
(I probably have several hundred pdfs, but as they are pdfs, it takes
a little work to import the text.)
A little polish on the program this weekend, perhaps, or the weekend
after that. I was also thinking it might also help Roger with some
notes he is trying to organise.
1941
Timothy Chase
The Christian Institute: Education Publications
27/07/2006 17:16:00
Goes back as far as 1997
PDFs work, Word docs no longer available.
Education Publications
http://www.christian.org.uk/html-publications/pub_education.htm
I have saved all the PDFs just in case.
1942
Rudy Vonk
Re: Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 17:25:00
On 27 jul 2006, at 18:07, Timothy Chase wrote:
> On 27/07/06, oeditor <b-jordan@lineone.net> wrote:
(snip)
> Sort of hypercard thing, with links between cards. Can
> > anyone recommend one? I'm supposed to be able to do SQL, but my mind
> > won't work in this heat!
> Alternatively, I
> have been working on a program in C# to recreate an earlier program I
> had written in hypercard.
Come Back Hypercard, All Is Forgiven!! The official substitute is
AppleScript Studio, but it sure is a bitch!! I am seriously thinking of
downgrading an old iMac I have at home to MacOS 9 and reinstate
Hypercard. They can stuff politically correct OOPS up whichever orifice
they still have available :-)
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1943
Timothy Chase
Re: Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 17:34:00
On 27/07/06, Rudy Vonk <rudy@mores.es> wrote:
> On 27 jul 2006, at 18:07, Timothy Chase wrote:
>
> > On 27/07/06, oeditor <b-jordan@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
> > Sort of hypercard thing, with links between cards. Can
> > > anyone recommend one? I'm supposed to be able to do SQL, but my mind
> > > won't work in this heat!
>
> > Alternatively, I
> > have been working on a program in C# to recreate an earlier program I
> > had written in hypercard.
>
> Come Back Hypercard, All Is Forgiven!! The official substitute is
> AppleScript Studio, but it sure is a bitch!! I am seriously thinking of
> downgrading an old iMac I have at home to MacOS 9 and reinstate
> Hypercard. They can stuff politically correct OOPS up whichever orifice
> they still have available :-)
Hypercard worked really well for me for a number of years, but now I
have something multi-tabbed with "hyper-navigation" (tree diagrams of
entire hypertextual files which indicate the bridge links), easier
modification of links, and I am thinking of implimenting search at
least within the individual files. (I prefer to break up the entire
hypertext into smaller files for ease of transport, emailing parts of
it, etc..)
1944
Timothy Chase
Re: Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 18:06:00
On 27/07/06, Timothy Chase <timothychase@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hypercard worked really well for me for a number of years, but now I
> have something multi-tabbed with "hyper-navigation" (tree diagrams of
> entire hypertextual files which indicate the bridge links), easier
> modification of links, and I am thinking of implimenting search at
> least within the individual files. (I prefer to break up the entire
> hypertext into smaller files for ease of transport, emailing parts of
> it, etc..)
PS
Quick aside: before Hypercard, I had been doing my stuff using index
cards in a box! As for the C# program, one drawback is that it
wouldn't be as easy for individuals to modify unless they program.
However, using a Mac wouldn't be a limitation: there are runtimes for
C# which work on Macs.
Anyway, just throwing out the program as an option. If something else
will do us better, I say, "Go for it!"
1945
Rudy Vonk
Re: Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 18:28:00
On 27 jul 2006, at 19:06, Timothy Chase wrote:
> Anyway, just throwing out the program as an option. If something else
> will do us better, I say, "Go for it!"
My first programming language was Fortran, immediately followed by
System/360 Assembler, then COBOL (although my data input always had to
include an extra blank card because I couldn't get my COBOL to read the
last card in the deck), all of this in the late 60's. I have done Z80
Assembler, and PASCAL to help a girlfriend's son through his university
computer engineering course, but after a while you don't really want to
learn more programming languages, especially if it isn't your job.
Also, you spend eight times more learning how to interface with the OS
(which is now practically all that a program does) than learning any
programming techniques. This is why in the 80's and early 90's
Hypercard, plus a minimum amount of whatever it used to call those
external thingies (and when the MacOS was documented for PASCAL) fit my
needs like a glove. Freedom! I am too old for classes, hierarchies and
methods :-)
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1946
oeditor
Re: Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 18:32:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase" <timothychase@...>
wrote:
>
> Quick aside: before Hypercard, I had been doing my stuff using index
> cards in a box! As for the C# program, one drawback is that it
> wouldn't be as easy for individuals to modify unless they program.
> However, using a Mac wouldn't be a limitation: there are runtimes for
> C# which work on Macs.
>
> Anyway, just throwing out the program as an option. If something else
> will do us better, I say, "Go for it!"
>
I wonder: if importing from pdf is a problem, how about just building
a web site? By definition, links are no problem and all sorts of files
can be linked and opened. It would be easy to swap pages, and external
pages could be linked to (if they can be relied upon!) I imagine there
are free site-map generators and site searches available - I don't
know about searches within documents, though.
A simple WYSIWIG html authoring program like Netscape Composer would
allow authoring and viewing in the same session. Or there are free
versions of more complicated things like Netobjects Fusion available
on cover discs.
Just a thought,
Brian
1947
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: Random Cretinist Info
27/07/2006 18:51:00
On 27/07/06, oeditor <b-jordan@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> I wonder: if importing from pdf is a problem, how about just building
> a web site? By definition, links are no problem and all sorts of files
> can be linked and opened. It would be easy to swap pages, and external
> pages could be linked to (if they can be relied upon!) I imagine there
> are free site-map generators and site searches available - I don't
> know about searches within documents, though.
>
> A simple WYSIWIG html authoring program like Netscape Composer would
> allow authoring and viewing in the same session. Or there are free
> versions of more complicated things like Netobjects Fusion available
> on cover discs.
For search, I have a perl script I can modify if we can get a CGI-bin
and have perl. And there are remote search engines. Heck, if you
wish to search a website, "site:[address][space][search terms]" works
just fine in Google - the only problem being that Google may take a
while before it indexes something new. Likewise, a WYSIWIG may be our
best option as far as what we need - or for that matter a Wiki. My
thing ("BrainStorm") works in rich text embedded in XML, so it has its
limitations. Moreover, BrainStorm is really meant for individuals,
not something collaborative - although I might make it more
collaborative at some later point.
1948
oeditor
Animal Rights Fundamentalists
27/07/2006 23:41:00
I've just watched a "debate" on animal rights terrorism on Newsnight.
It was reminiscent of the religous fundamentalist thing. It centred on
the idea that there were scientific arguments pro and con, and that
each side of the argument was equally deserving. One of the AR
protagonists claimed that there was scientific support for both sides
of the argument but neglected - and had to be told - that there was a
vast proponderance in favour of animal research. A typical argument
was that thousands of deaths each year are due to medicines, and this
is entirely due to their being based on animal experiments.
Had the programme been about the validity of medical research on
animals, it would have been one thing. But the "debate" just served to
obscure discussion of frank terrorism.
Certainly there are arguments against animal testing, but these people
seemed to be imbued with a fundamentalist zeal and would listen to no
arguments. Towards the end, btw, came what I think was the clincher:
someone (it might have been Colin Blakemore) pointed out that a lot of
animal experimentation was in order to discover the causes of disease,
not just to develop treatments, and so species differemces were less
significant.
Brian
1949
John Germain
RE: Animal Rights Fundamentalists
28/07/2006 00:21:00
Don't you know that all other life than human is sacrosanct?
What really gets me is the people who eat babies: all those little seedlings...
Oh, I could KILL those MURDERERS..
NOTE to all NO. Not really.
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
oeditor
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 11:42 PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Animal Rights Fundamentalists
I've just watched a "debate" on animal rights terrorism on Newsnight.
It was reminiscent of the religous fundamentalist thing. It centred on
the idea that there were scientific arguments pro and con, and that
each side of the argument was equally deserving. One of the AR
protagonists claimed that there was scientific support for both sides