1601
Roger Stanyard
Re: what we want, how we are gonna get it
13/07/2006 14:15:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Lowe" <ian@...> wrote:
>
Thanks Ian,
I'm just trying to get and keep as many onside as I can.
Couple of interesting points. I've never heard the term United
Kingdoms but always understood that technically the UK consists of
two kingdoms, a principality and a province. However, all that sounds
a bit archaic to me.
And there are always those awkward bits like the Isle of Man and the
Channel Islands. The bishop of the Isle of Man is called the Bishop
of Man and Sodor but nobody knows where Sodor is!
In the TV sector Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are now being
referred to as the nations. I dunno if the likes of the BBC or C4 are
using this in public; they certainly are in their corporate
literature.
The BBC has always made weep/laugh about the nationality thing. I can
remember early in his career, Nigel Mansell being in a major motor
race where he crept up from the back as an outsider to win. When he
was at the back he was described by the BBC commentator as Irish. As
he slowly worked to the middle he became Northern Irish and when he
got to the front he suddenly became British.
The buggers still do it as well! (At least South of the border.) I
noticed an example a few months back.
I glad you point out that the Scots are not nearly as influenced by
the fundies as the rest of us. The Scots have always been the brains
in the UK. Jeez, you run it! Can we have it back? Yep, and you even
set the BBC up (Reith), invented TV (Baird)....It's obviously all
your fault. ;-)
Roger
> > This thing is impossible to reconcile.
>
> Yeah, there's a perverse "damned if you don't, damned if you do"
element to
> it.
>
> To be honest, I was mulling it over a bit more, and British fits -
the
> problems faced in England and Wales are absolutely different from
those in
> Scotland - we have a crop of newer fundie churches, rather than
infiltration
> of the CoS, our parliament is absolutely set against academies (I
believe
> that the Labour party in Scotland is much more "old labour"
than "new
> labour", and therefore dislikes the stealth privatisation aspects of
> academies) and so on.
>
> > To put it mildly, people in Northern Ireland do not identify with
> Britain meaning England and Wales. Especially if they are
Protestant.
>
> Aye, good point!
>
> >OK, you are right to point out my slip about GCSE to which my
reply
> is:
>
> I really wasn't having a go Roger - it's just what happens, British
is used
> as a shorthand for English when it's convenient, and the
distinction is a
> very fuzzy one. There used to be a rule on the BBC (not any more!)
that in
> any sporting event if we lost we were Scotland, but somehow if we
won, we
> suddenly became British - these things cause a disproportionate
amount of
> hassle.
>
> > I've also got a feeling if we used UK in the name of the movement
> rather than British it will backfire on us. Note that UKIP is
> universally percieved as an English national party.
>
> And that's another darn good point, probably what convinced me most!
>
> > I think that if we are being asked to drop the word British
because
> it is a dirty word is, well, as preposterous as it is insulting.
>
> Easy tiger! Messenger, remember? I am describing the situation, not
> defending it.
>
> >I do think it important to remember that there are Scottish
> sensibilities, cultural differences and a very different legal and
> educational system there.
>
> The legal and education issues are the only ones which matter in
this
> context I would think - and for that part, I'd say concentrate on
the
> English system - because of the political differences I have
mentioned
> above, we seem more robust against the fundies at the moment - their
> attempts to get people elected were laughable (around 2000 people
in the
> entire country voted for "Operation Christian Vote" candidates, and
they
> lost their deposit everywhere) and the dominant churches (catholic
and
> Church of Scotland) are both anti-YEC.
>
> England (and NI) is the one facing the biggest problem right now.
>
> > We also have to remember in lobbying, for example, that what we
> propose may have to be different for the two parts of the UK.
>
> Yeah - Education policy is devolved, so handled by the Scottish
parliament.
>
> I.
>
> PS> just an addendum, and purely for interest. North of the border,
I am
> much more used to seeing United Kingdoms, whilst the English almost
always
> use United Kingdom. Quite telling, really. Anyhoo, on with the
proper stuff.
>
1602
oeditor
Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 14:09:00
In the July 'Freethinker', Barry Duke reports that evangelicals in
Kings Lynn are handing out anti-atheist pamphlets which cite the
banana as evidence of intelligent design. If they're getting as bold
as that, it wouldn't be surprising if they're worming their way into
schools, a la Liverpool. Unless the YECers are already there and
fending them off, of course ;-)
Anyone got news of those parts?
Brian
1603
oeditor
Re: what we want, how we are gonna get it
13/07/2006 14:28:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stanyard" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> In the TV sector Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are now being
> referred to as the nations.
Which is entirely consistent since Blair, a Scot, has declared that
there is no such nationality as 'English'.
Brian
1604
JAF
Re: Re: Unison report on Academies
13/07/2006 14:39:00
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:31:43 -0000, you wrote:
>a Labour government introducing the Human Rights Act
>and then given institutions it was resposible for creating,
>exemption. Why?)
It is worthy of note that Britain is the only EU member to have derogated
from *any* of the articles of the ECHR (European Convention on Human
Rights), under the pretext of 'security'.
Again, why?
I have my own answers, but I'm pretty sure they sound a bit loony, so I
won't propound them here, but this week's keywords are 'conspiracy', 'US'
and 'oil'.
--
JAF
anarchatntlworldfullstopcom
1605
Drew Smith
RE: Re: Unison report on Academies
13/07/2006 14:04:00
Roger: For Americans in the group, the Human Rights legislation in the UK
originated after the end of WW2 and was specific the mainland Europe
although put together by the British. The central court is the
European Court of Human Rights (in the Netherlands, IIRC). It's not
a
European Union institution and is completely seperate from the
European Court of Justice (which is).
Drew: It's a Council of Europe institution, correct? As for academies, I
was unfamiliar with them, but from the descriptions I've read, they appear
to be similar to a relatively new concept in the United States: charter
schools. Is there someone here familiar enough with both to say whether or
not they are similar in concept?
1606
John Germain
RE: Re: what we want, how we are gonna get it
13/07/2006 14:43:00
Oi! England is OUR colony, d'you mind!
Ruddy Rievers....
But seriously, folks....
This is becoming a genuinely political question:
Whatever you lot do by way of lobbying your MPs/MEPs, for example, I can't help.
I don't
got none <g>. H.M.Q. in Privy Council, via whichever Whitehall Department is
currently
lumbered with us, possibly...
Can Roger (England, U.K.) usefully back Ian (Scotland, U.K.) up and vice versa,
or are
they on their own? Can either of them lobby a Member of the Welsh (U.K.) or N.I.
(Gawd
No!) assemblies?
I suspect not? The equivalent of the U.S. Federal level that was once
Westminster is now
the European Parliament, yes?
The broader the umbrella the better if that is the case, especially if MEPs
eventually
become useful allies. I'm thinking here of my actually serious question about
the NSS the
other day; NSS Hon.Associate Sophie in 't Veld is Chair of the EP Separation of
Religion
and State Working Party. She is also a Dutch MEP.
As Lenny says (~ish) "Don't count your allies out.."
It might sound as though this is trying to run before we can walk, but a couple
of days to
think about it isn't much in the scheme of 6,000 years......
John Germain
Bailick of Jersey
A Peculiar of the Crown / Crown Dependent Territory
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ian
Lowe
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:46 AM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [BlackShadow] Re: what we want, how we are gonna get it
Pfft. An English Colony with nicer weather, and you know it :P
In all seriousness, although I am a Scottish Nationalist politically, I
don't take the whole "anglophobia" thing too seriously...
But, many people do - and when it comes to something as simple as picking a
name, it makes sense not to alienate a political group.
Either that, or accept that you don't represent the whole nation, and choose
an "England and Wales" name. There's possibly mileage in that, given that
Scotland is essentially a separate nation as regards this campaign anyway.
Ian.
1607
Roger Stanyard
Re: (OT?) What about Europe
13/07/2006 15:23:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> The discussion about whether we are English/British/United or whatever
> got me wondering. The American fundies have wound up Christians here,
> and Muslims here and in the Middle East. Does anyone know whether they
> are spreading their poison into schools im mainland Europe?
>
> Brian
Yes and no Brian. It's something I haven't yet looked at fully but as a
general guidline I take the view that the fundamentalist creationist
movement is largely Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-American. Even in Sotland it
seems to not be well established.
I say this, but one has to remember that AIG in the UK acts as the
European arm of AiG and AiG people have bene active in Eastern Europe.
AiG of course split earlier this year and I'm not entirley clear how
that has affected who does what because it appears AiG Europe was using
AiG people from Canada who have now become part of Creation Ministries
International (the Banana Bender outfit).
Moreover, John Mackay has also been active in that part of the world
(Bulgaria and Romania, IIRC) and there is, nominally, at least, an
organisation called Creation Research Europe.
Dunno, though, how far this has involved schools.
There is a biggish creationist movement in Turkey which uses rehashed
ICR material but, again as a far as I am aware, they have made no in-
roads at all into science in state schools.
The thing to be a bit careful about is the religious TV channels. They
are everywhere. I've got a steerable dish somewhere so I rig it when I
start researching that area again. A lot of them provide programming
for kids and I am afraid to say a lot carry US religious fundamentalist
programming.
I dunno if you know how these channels work but they sell advertising
air time to other ministries. Those ministries then use the air time to
transmit their own programming and (it they can get away with it)
solicit money during the programme. It's very closely akin to passing
round the collection plate at the end of a normal religious service.
Given that some ministries transmit their service on numersous
satellites perhaps several times a day, you can see how, if it is done
correctly, it is a licence to print money.
A lot of the ministries involved are neo-Pentecostal or fully
Pentecostal and are frequently creationists. They have a thing called
Properity theology or some such which says that if you believe in what
they say and contribute as much as you can to the collection bucket,
you too will be rich.
Many of them are blatent about it - words to the effect that if you
give £1,000 God will ensure that you get £10,000 back - give £10,000
and you'll get £100,000 back. Of course, the person who becomes rich is
the Pastor whose collection bucket these people fill. They are
frequently greed machines.
I started on systematic research on these channels some months ago but
I won't have anything completed until well into the Autumn.
I have looked at Revelation TV which operates out of London. Howard
Condor has yet to make his fortune from it but he has close roots in
the Pentecostal movement and seems to interview all of the leading
creationists such as John Mackay and Ken Ham. IIRC God TV also does so
and that is a much bigger international organisation.
It's on my list of things to do to see whether people behind these
channels or buying air time on them are also putting money into schools
in Eastern Europe and Africa and beaming in their creationism off the
back of this.
Can anyone else help on Brian's question?
Roger
1608
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: Increasing Membership, Bringing in Organizations
13/07/2006 15:36:00
On 12/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
>
> <timothychase@...> wrote:
> >
> >The Science Just Science folks want, well,
> > > science just science. ;) Business leaders and groups want
> > > quality science edcuation in a high-tech world. Parents and
> students
> > > want quality education to get good jobs.
> >
> > So would I take it that science just science would be dealing with
> > schools and parents, for example, and certainly wouldn't be as
> > interested in dealing with the Secularists, C of E or business
> > leaders.
> >
>
> As you know, I am a member of Science Just Science and have been so
> since it basically launched in February. I am one of the more
> prolific posters there.
>
> SJS is pretty open as to its tactics and who it deals with. There are
> some very bright people in there and some of them are activists in
> their own right and have been for years.
>
> Basically the model put together to deal with the fundies in
> Winchester (as and when we need to) was a joint effort between me and
> one of the other group members (who is also involved in Panda's
> Thumb).
>
> Indeed, IIRC, SJS was developed partly as a British equivalent of
> Panda's Thumb but with a strong activist streak.
> It's very new so, perhaps, hasn't entirely got into its stride yet.
>
> I must admit that I am pretty heavily committed to backing SJS. They
> have tried hard and put a lot of work into it since February (well,
> actually since before that as it took a lot of preparation).
>
> I have it in my plans to meet the SJS people as soon as we can
> organise time to do so. We have pencilled in as a venue Down House
> (Charles Darwin's home).
I was unaware this. You probably mentioned something at one point or
another, but it didn't register.
> The other group that I am trying to get involved in is No To
> Academies which is Peter Hearty's baby. It's a problem of time as
> usual. I wanted to contribute something this week but I don't think I
> can find the time until the weekend.
I was unaware of this, too.
Somehow I suspect neither group will see any problem with an umbrella
organisation which leaves them autonomous.
> Just as a minor point that some may find useful, SJS is pretty strict
> on religious sensibilities - it goes out of its way not to offend
> them. A significant number of people in it are Christians.
1609
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: Increasing Membership, Bringing in Organizations
13/07/2006 16:24:00
On 13/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase"
> <timothychase@...> wrote:
>
> > We have mentioned websites, wikis, and the handling of email lists.
> > We have discussed some of the logistics and strategy of the
> > organization. But one thing we have agreed upon is the need for
> more
> > people. Now we need to figure out how to get them.
>
> I have some tricks up my sleeve on this and will be working on one of
> them today behind the sceens. It will take a week (or maybe longer)
> to get that one sorted. Email me off list for details.
>
> Mikey suggestion of contacting Steve Jones seems to me to be a very
> useful immediate step. We may fall flat on our faces on this but I
> think it is well worth the effort. That is the third think I'll be
> working on today.
>
> Tim, could I ask you to handle Talkorigins and put a message/invite
> in there? How about Panda's Thumb? Do you think it's a good idea to
> do likewise there. If so, could you, or someone else, handle it?
>
> I't now 8.30 am so I'm going to have to cut this reply short for the
> time being. I'll be back later on it.
Sure! I will put in a message with Talkorigins today, and then try
contacting some of the people who have had greater involvement there.
With me, I have been "subscribed" but weekly digest -- simply couldn't
hande the volume. I can change the subscription level for a while,
then email people, have them RE me directly, then collect the names
and email addresses and send in paired lists. Would you prefer to
know what skills they might bring to the table? Do you have a format
you would prefer for this sort of thing? XML or just Tab-delineated?
As for Panda's Thumb, Lenny might be in a better position -- but I
will to contact them there as well. If they get the message twice, it
shouldn't be a problem. And it may help to have a more official
message going out to DebunkCreation as some of the people there may
have connections. I would be happy to handle that, but I figure that
Lenny might prefer to handle it himself.
Additionally, Ian might want to contact PZ Meyers, but if not I will.
PZ Meyers has a fairly wide audience, and PZ Meyers does a kind of
half-and-half with atheism and developmental biology. Some are
undoubtedly from the UK. I have PZ Meyers email address and will
email the blog and email address to Ian, but I can also try and
contact him myself. Additionally, since it is half and half, I
suspect that PZ wouldn't mind Ian doing trackbacks on-and-off a few
times when the subject is atheism, and that may work out rather well
if he gets in early as those tend to be some of the really popular
posts.
I believe I can get the message through to another fairly big website
which has following in atheist circles. I will look up the email
addresses and handle that if possible. I also have some other ideas
for Ian, but I would prefer to handle those off-list. Old
connections. And when we get interested in the southern hemisphere, I
might have some people to contact there as well. New Zealand at
least, and they should have contacts in Australia.
1610
Roger Stanyard
Re: what we want, how we are gonna get it
13/07/2006 15:59:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "John Germain"
<jtg.germainsjy@...> wrote:
>
> Oi! England is OUR colony, d'you mind!
>
> Ruddy Rievers....
>
> But seriously, folks....
>
> This is becoming a genuinely political question:
>
> Whatever you lot do by way of lobbying your MPs/MEPs, for example,
I can't help. I don't
> got none <g>. H.M.Q. in Privy Council, via whichever Whitehall
Department is currently
> lumbered with us, possibly...
>
> Can Roger (England, U.K.) usefully back Ian (Scotland, U.K.) up and
vice versa, or are
> they on their own? Can either of them lobby a Member of the Welsh
(U.K.) or N.I. (Gawd
> No!) assemblies?
Yes,
I think it essential to see this as a campaign that covers the whole
of the UK as it affects the whole of the UK. The fundies haven't
divided it up into seperate territories.
Seems to me that the core intelligence and how to models we pull
together should be useful in any bit of the UK.
Moreover, approaching politicians does just mean politicians in
Westminster or in three three nations but also local politicians.
There are other areas as well such as naming and shaming universities
with crackpot professors who tell children that science taught in
their universities is crap. Teenagers in Northern Ireland, Scotland
and Wales are, in many cases, likely to end up in English
universities.
(For Americans, roughly speaking, UK people tend not to do their
degrees in local universities. Ian should be able to fill you out on
this in the position in Scotland but my understanding is the Scottish
universities are popular with people from South of the border because
of tuition fee differences and because the better Scottish
universities have a high reputation.)
Roger
>
> I suspect not? The equivalent of the U.S. Federal level that was
once Westminster is now
> the European Parliament, yes?
>
> The broader the umbrella the better if that is the case, especially
if MEPs eventually
> become useful allies. I'm thinking here of my actually serious
question about the NSS the
> other day; NSS Hon.Associate Sophie in 't Veld is Chair of the EP
Separation of Religion
> and State Working Party. She is also a Dutch MEP.
Yep, that one just marked up as a possibly ally.
Roger
1611
Roger Stanyard
Re: Increasing Membership, Bringing in Organizations
13/07/2006 16:32:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase" <timothychase@...>
wrote:
>
> On 12/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@...> wrote:
> >
Tim,
No to Academies is at www.notoacademies.org.uk
I must admit I'm looking forward to the meeting at Down House.
Roger
1612
Andrew
Cash for peerages
13/07/2006 16:16:00
I notice they've arrested one of Tony Blair's friends in the cash for
peerages scandal investigations.
I'm not sure if I've made the right connections, but was this another line
of attack on the part of the fundamentalists - rewarding them for funding
the Academies by also giving them political power in the second chamber?
1613
Roger Stanyard
Re: Unison report on Academies
13/07/2006 16:26:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Smith" <drewsmithtpa@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Drew: It's a Council of Europe institution, correct?
Yep, and the court is in Strasbourg, not the Netherlands as I suggested.
As for academies, I
> was unfamiliar with them, but from the descriptions I've read, they
appear
> to be similar to a relatively new concept in the United States:
charter
> schools.
As far as I am aware, the academy schools are are more extreme/radical
or whatever than Charter schools which are basically state-sector
schools that are run under a relatively short term charter for 3-5
years or so. As far as I can make out the charter schools receive
relatively little Federal money. However, like Academy schools the idea
was to get poorly performing schools out of control of local
bureacracies - in the UK the local education authorities.
However, my understanding of academy schools in the UK is that those
who take control of them have control for 25 years and it usually
involves a completly new (physically) school. Nominally those who take
control have to put up £2m (say US$3.5m) per school but retain
ownserhip of the land after 25 years.
Moreover, in the USA charter schools are strictly non-sectarian. In the
UK, sects can take control of academy schools which, in a sense, is
what Vardy has done. The term sect, though, has a very different nuance
in the UK than in the USA. It's a very derogatory term.
Moreover, most of the capital costs of the academy schools comes from
central government - 90% plus - rather than local authorities. But
then, you are into a can of worms because local government financing in
the UK mostly comes from central government anyway.
Marc Draco has posted today a URL link to a report on academy schools
which has been published by a major union in the UK, Unison. That gives
a lot of detail.
In another world I would be disinterested in the debate over academy
schools. But I live in this one and it seems to me that they are a
disaster because of the involvement of fundamentalists. That's just
pushing education back into the 17th century. Moreover, it's a matter
of far too much loss of public control and accountability.
Vardy I believe has a war chest to create another seven and there are
two, IIRC, lined up to be controlled by fundamentalists in the Midlands.
Roger
.
Is there someone here familiar enough with both to say whether or
> not they are similar in concept?
>
1614
Marc Draco
Re: Cash for peerages
13/07/2006 17:33:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
The mastermind of this whole sorry affair (the academies) is now a
Lord. He's also a Xian and in the DfES.
See any pattern emerging?
Little wonder the fundies and "normal" faith groups who are being
brought on board are all, so far, Christians.
Andrew wrote:
->
I notice they've arrested one of Tony Blair's friends in the cash for
peerages scandal investigations.
I'm not sure if I've made the right connections, but was this another
line
of attack on the part of the fundamentalists - rewarding them for
funding
the Academies by also giving them political power in the second chamber?
1615
Marc Draco
Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 17:40:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
Just to bone me up, Brian, how exactly is the world's largest herb
evidence of anything?
Please tell me they're not using "it's perfect for peeling and eating,
etc." argument. PLEASE not that.
oeditor wrote:
->
In the July 'Freethinker', Barry Duke reports that
evangelicals in
Kings Lynn are handing out anti-atheist pamphlets which cite the
banana as evidence of intelligent design. If they're getting as bold
as that, it wouldn't be surprising if they're worming their way into
schools, a la Liverpool. Unless the YECers are already there and
fending them off, of course ;-)
Anyone got news of those parts?
Brian
1616
Timothy Chase
IMPORTANT: Invites to Blogs and Email Lists
13/07/2006 17:33:00
When we send people our way from some locations, we are undoubtedly
going to get some creationists. I know of places where the problem is
minimized, but I also know of others where it will be much more of a
problem, e.g., creation_evolution_debate. Is BlackShadow open to
creationist infiltrators or not?
TalkOrigins and creation_evolution_debate will bring in creationists
who we can moderate as soon as this becomes evident, but they will
join, at least some of them. However, if we are not open to
creationists and bounce people off, we will risk losing valuable new
enlists who may also have connections.
I will hold off on sending out general messages to those lists which
invite people to join ours until we have decided to try these venues.
1617
Marc Draco
Wating for Stefan
13/07/2006 17:36:00
Dunno about Roger, but I need some shuteye.
Anyhoo...
One thing Stefan told me last night over beer was that on three separate
occasions he had asked to bow out of religious assembly (as is his right
or that of his parents) and on each occasion he was (calmly) brow-beaten
by staff into towing the line.
Another is more interesting and a major stick to beat Vardy's folk with
- but I'm awaiting hard evidence (or corroborative witness statements).
Marc
1618
Marc Draco
Middlesbrough Demo
13/07/2006 17:41:00
Stefan (and some of his comrades) are interested in mounting an
anti-academy protest in Middlesbrough.
Anyone have an idea on what the legal angle is? Don't want to see the
poor chap arrested in his fetching NTA teeshirt! ;-)
Marc
1619
Timothy Chase
Re: Let''s Open BlackShadow to Creationists
13/07/2006 17:56:00
PS Since this list is for our activities, though, we can moderate the
creationists.
1620
Timothy Chase
Let''s Open BlackShadow to Creationists
13/07/2006 17:54:00
If we truly want to get the message out to as many people as possible,
we will be bringing in those who are pro-creationism and
pro-evolutionary biology. If we try to purge the list
indiscriminantly, we will lose and alienate some valuable allies in
the pro-evolution movement. If we need something which is more
secure, it should be a separate list. Let us decide today, if
possible.
1621
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: what we want, how we are gonna get it
13/07/2006 18:16:00
> Can Roger (England, U.K.) usefully back Ian (Scotland, U.K.) up and vice
versa, or are
> they on their own? Can either of them lobby a Member of the Welsh (U.K.)
or N.I. (Gawd
> No!) assemblies?
Yes, with a couple of gotchas - I can't write to my MP about
English/Welsh/NI education, as that's a devolved power, and therefore a
"West Lothian Question" issue.
Obviously, groups can (and should) share intelligence - we are, for the most
part, one legislative nation.
> Ian should be able to fill you out on this in the position in Scotland but
my understanding is the Scottish universities are popular with people from
South of the border because of tuition fee differences and because the
better Scottish universities have a high reputation.
Absolutley - a high percentage of the students at Scottish universities come
from the rest of the world, and vice versa. Sharing the bad apples is
probably a good thing - that and actively approaching the universities in
question asking what they feel about their academics bringing the name of
the institution into disrepute.
Ian.
1622
Roger Stanyard
Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 18:05:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Marc Draco <midnight.diamond@...>
wrote:
>
> Just to bone me up, Brian, how exactly is the world's largest herb
> evidence of anything?
>
This is the doing somewhere of one Ray Comfort who apparently woke up
at 4am in the morning with the revelation that bananas have been
prefectly formed by God for eating. He's an American and I've seen a
film clip of him promoting it. At first I thought it was a parody of
dim-witted fundies but no, its the real think. He shows you can stick
it in your mouth, for example (it's that level of intellect) which
has led to the comment by Lenny that the whole thing sounds homo-
erotic.
Well, apparently he has set his own ministry up pushing this sort of
thing so presumably some of the dimwits in Kings Lynn have either
downloaded something off the Internet about him or have been watching
one of the religious TV channels.
The question to ask them when they present this sort of rubbish is
whether the fact you can stick a cucumber/carrot/pickled
onion/anything you chose up your bum is a sign that God must have
designed it.
To make you smile, apparently he and his partner have run into a spot
of bother with the FBI.
And no, its got nothing to do with showing fundies how to stick
cucumbers up their bums.
Roger
1623
Roger Stanyard
Re: Let''s Open BlackShadow to Creationists
13/07/2006 18:29:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase" <timothychase@...>
wrote:
>
> If we truly want to get the message out to as many people as possible,
> we will be bringing in those who are pro-creationism and
> pro-evolutionary biology. If we try to purge the list
> indiscriminantly, we will lose and alienate some valuable allies in
> the pro-evolution movement. If we need something which is more
> secure, it should be a separate list. Let us decide today, if
> possible.
In the absence of any time to mull over this, Tim, I think we have to
keep Blackshadow open for the time being. We can always set up another
closed Yahoo group and quickly if it comes to that.
Roger
1624
Roger Stanyard
Re: IMPORTANT: Invites to Blogs and Email Lists
13/07/2006 18:20:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Chase" <timothychase@...>
wrote:
>
> When we send people our way from some locations, we are undoubtedly
> going to get some creationists. I know of places where the problem is
> minimized, but I also know of others where it will be much more of a
> problem, e.g., creation_evolution_debate. Is BlackShadow open to
> creationist infiltrators or not?
>
I think the really serious stuff should never be on a Yahoo group, open
or closed. It should be by private email. From what everyone has said,
it looks as if we made need both an open and closed group but, please,
please, lets get the ball rolling with some action first.
There are less than 50 members to the group. Methinks the best way to
handle this is the minute we need to talk confidentialy is to ask them
if they want to be put on a confidential email list to put together
some immediate options. Methinks it'll be about 20 who ask and it won't
take long to vet that the names are safe.
There are a couple of things I wanted to start moving today but I've no
been at work for 13 hours, its a hot day and I'm just off for some
foaminess down the pub.
It'll be back on this in the morning.
TalkOrigins and creation_evolution_debate will bring in creationists
> who we can moderate as soon as this becomes evident, but they will
> join, at least some of them. However, if we are not open to
> creationists and bounce people off, we will risk losing valuable new
> enlists who may also have connections.
I know who the idiots are on the creation_evolution_debate group so I
can weed 'em out pretty quick. The only slight problem there is the
half-wit spiderman who is no doubt monitoring it since he got kicked
out. He's likely to try to get in under one of his false names. I'll
soon spot him if he does.
Most of the fundies in there don't know where the UK is (I jest not
everyone).
If we ask the Talkorigins people how about telling them first that the
cretinists will be kicked out? That means we don't have to bounce
people out.
>
> I will hold off on sending out general messages to those lists which
> invite people to join ours until we have decided to try these venues.
>
1625
vulcannuk
Re: Middlesbrough Demo
13/07/2006 18:08:00
Thanks for posting. I just think the only way that we are ever going
to achieve anything is if we engadge the public in the debate and
inform them what exactly is going on. From the various conversations I
have had many people its clear to see that they are infact ignorant to
many of the issues and because not enough media attention is given to
the issue they hardly see it to be important. Any suggestions would be
appreciated.
1626
oeditor
Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 18:24:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Marc Draco <midnight.diamond@...>
wrote:
>
> Just to bone me up, Brian, how exactly is the world's largest herb
> evidence of anything?
>
> Please tell me they're not using "it's perfect for peeling and eating,
> etc." argument. PLEASE not that.
>
Yes, that. Although this might be the inelligent version of the
design. It's got:
2) non-slip surface
3) colour indication of condition
5) perforated wrapper
6) biodegradable wrapper
etc with numbered diagram too!
Stems from 'the atheist test' pamphlet which also describes how a can
of Coke might have evolved.
Apparently its origin is in a book 'God Doesn't Belive In Atheists' by
Ray Comfort.
Brian
1627
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: Unison report on Academies
13/07/2006 18:15:00
On the Human Rights issue..
There's a gotcha there. As EU citizens, we are all entitled to recourse from
the ECHR. The UK Human rights act was simply a version of the ECHR enacted
into UK law to provide a more speedy legal process (ECHR waiting times being
looooong).
If Bliar and buddies derogate from the UK Human Rights Act, we still have
our EU rights - the option to appeal to the ECHR still remains.
I.
Course, I am an IT bod, not a lawyer, and this is not first hand knowledge,
so... Pinch of NaCl please.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Roger Stanyard
Sent: 13 July 2006 13:32
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Re: Unison report on Academies
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <taoist.hermit1@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I notice section eight ends by commenting that Academies are
outside the
> scope of the Human Rights Act.
>
Andrew,
This is way outside of my knowledge. I have virtually no training in law.
However, what would be really interesting to find out is who pushed to get
the academies exempt from the Human Rights Act and why.
You may be aware that The Chrisian Institute, which is a big lobbier, is
really keen on corporal punishment - smacking children. One wonders whether
the exemption allows academies to have the freedom to use corporal
punishment. I'm not aware of any of them do use it, though. It's probably
far to a sensitive issue.
(For Americans in the group, the Human Rights legislation in the UK
originated after the end of WW2 and was specific the mainland Europe
although put together by the British. The central court is the European
Court of Human Rights (in the Netherlands, IIRC). It's not a European Union
institution and is completely seperate from the European Court of Justice
(which is).
However, because we don't really have a written constitution (and I guess
because we have common law), it was gradually incorporated into British law
and was formally adopted as British law in the late 1990s. Indeed, I guess
it can be argued that the Human Rights Act is, in effect, now a written part
of the British constitution.
I asked the above questions because there seems to be a contradiction - a
Labour government introducing the Human Rights Act and then given
institutions it was resposible for creating, exemption. Why?)
Roger
I was unaware that anywhere (apart from Gunatanamo Bay etc) in the
> supposedly civilised world is exempt from human rights legislation.
>
> I've actually just written back to my local Lib Dem person (not the
local
> MP, unfortunately) and mentioned the restrictions on toilet access
at the
> Vardy schools as a possible European Court issue. It now seems
from the
> Unison document that the Academies are already protected from this
(or maybe
> all schools are exempt?).
>
> It seems to me this is another major issue that should be brought
to the
> attention of parents. The toilet access restrictions should be
cause enough
> for concern, but when Academies are instituting rules like that and
they're
> exempt from the human rights legislation that might be expected to
provide
> protection, I think there are very serious questions.
>
> As so often with this stuff, I find it hard to believe we're having
to
> address these issues. I certainly never expected school
regulations in my
> country to ever require investigation because of human rights
issues.
>
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/33wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Yahoo! Groups Links
1628
John Germain
RE: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 18:44:00
You'll be telling us someone thinks Spaghetti 'n Meatballs are God Incarnate
next...
Honestly, Roger..
(Like the "it's the real think.." typo!" (?? Now I'm wondering!)
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Roger
Stanyard
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 6:06 PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Marc Draco <midnight.diamond@...>
wrote:
>
> Just to bone me up, Brian, how exactly is the world's largest herb
> evidence of anything?
>
This is the doing somewhere of one Ray Comfort who apparently woke up
at 4am in the morning with the revelation that bananas have been
prefectly formed by God for eating. He's an American and I've seen a
film clip of him promoting it. At first I thought it was a parody of
dim-witted fundies but no, its the real think. He shows you can stick
it in your mouth, for example (it's that level of intellect) which
has led to the comment by Lenny that the whole thing sounds homo-
erotic.
Well, apparently he has set his own ministry up pushing this sort of
thing so presumably some of the dimwits in Kings Lynn have either
downloaded something off the Internet about him or have been watching
one of the religious TV channels.
The question to ask them when they present this sort of rubbish is
whether the fact you can stick a cucumber/carrot/pickled
onion/anything you chose up your bum is a sign that God must have
designed it.
To make you smile, apparently he and his partner have run into a spot
of bother with the FBI.
And no, its got nothing to do with showing fundies how to stick
cucumbers up their bums.
Roger
Yahoo! Groups Links
1629
Drew Smith
RE: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 18:53:00
Roger: This is the doing somewhere of one Ray Comfort who apparently woke up
at 4am in the morning with the revelation that bananas have been prefectly
formed by God for eating. He's an American...
Drew: Comfort was born in New Zealand in 1949, and has lived full-time in
the United States only since 1989 (so far as I can tell), but has he
obtained American citizenship? I haven't found any record of it.
***
Roger: At first I thought it was a parody of dim-witted fundies but no, its
the real think.
Drew: Apparently he has said that the banana argument was "kind of tongue in
cheek", but given that he didn't say that until *after* he was forced to
concede the argument, it comes across as a weak "Ha ha, only kidding".
1630
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: IMPORTANT: Invites to Blogs and Email Lists
13/07/2006 19:35:00
On 13/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I think the really serious stuff should never be on a Yahoo group, open
> or closed. It should be by private email. From what everyone has said,
> it looks as if we made need both an open and closed group but, please,
> please, lets get the ball rolling with some action first.
...
Sounds good. I will let people know that this is for pro-Evos only,
but advertise in creation_evolution_debate and try my older
connections -- which should be of higher quality than
creation_evolution_debate.
1631
Timothy Chase
Re: Re: Let''s Open BlackShadow to Creationists
13/07/2006 19:41:00
On 13/07/06, Roger Stanyard <roger@dttconsulting.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In the absence of any time to mull over this, Tim, I think we have to
> keep Blackshadow open for the time being. We can always set up another
> closed Yahoo group and quickly if it comes to that.
>
Sounds good. We will let them people know that this is a strictly
pro-Evo group, but advertise in creation_evolution_debate.
Incidently, if we advertise to the general public in TalkOrigins, this
will also include creationists, some of whom you will be unfamiliar
with undoubtedly.
I will hold off on TalkOrigins until I get the OK. Meanwhile, I will
start on my older connections who are not creationists and draft
messages in preparation.
1632
John Germain
RE: Re: Unison report on Academies
13/07/2006 20:31:00
Sorry, not an E.U. citizen.
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ian
Lowe
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 6:15 PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [BlackShadow] Re: Unison report on Academies
On the Human Rights issue..
There's a gotcha there. As EU citizens, we are all entitled to recourse from
the ECHR. The UK Human rights act was simply a version of the ECHR enacted
into UK law to provide a more speedy legal process (ECHR waiting times being
looooong).
If Bliar and buddies derogate from the UK Human Rights Act, we still have
our EU rights - the option to appeal to the ECHR still remains.
I.
Course, I am an IT bod, not a lawyer, and this is not first hand knowledge,
so... Pinch of NaCl please.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Roger Stanyard
Sent: 13 July 2006 13:32
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Re: Unison report on Academies
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <taoist.hermit1@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I notice section eight ends by commenting that Academies are
outside the
> scope of the Human Rights Act.
>
Andrew,
This is way outside of my knowledge. I have virtually no training in law.
However, what would be really interesting to find out is who pushed to get
the academies exempt from the Human Rights Act and why.
You may be aware that The Chrisian Institute, which is a big lobbier, is
really keen on corporal punishment - smacking children. One wonders whether
the exemption allows academies to have the freedom to use corporal
punishment. I'm not aware of any of them do use it, though. It's probably
far to a sensitive issue.
(For Americans in the group, the Human Rights legislation in the UK
originated after the end of WW2 and was specific the mainland Europe
although put together by the British. The central court is the European
Court of Human Rights (in the Netherlands, IIRC). It's not a European Union
institution and is completely seperate from the European Court of Justice
(which is).
However, because we don't really have a written constitution (and I guess
because we have common law), it was gradually incorporated into British law
and was formally adopted as British law in the late 1990s. Indeed, I guess
it can be argued that the Human Rights Act is, in effect, now a written part
of the British constitution.
I asked the above questions because there seems to be a contradiction - a
Labour government introducing the Human Rights Act and then given
institutions it was resposible for creating, exemption. Why?)
Roger
I was unaware that anywhere (apart from Gunatanamo Bay etc) in the
> supposedly civilised world is exempt from human rights legislation.
>
> I've actually just written back to my local Lib Dem person (not the
local
> MP, unfortunately) and mentioned the restrictions on toilet access
at the
> Vardy schools as a possible European Court issue. It now seems
from the
> Unison document that the Academies are already protected from this
(or maybe
> all schools are exempt?).
>
> It seems to me this is another major issue that should be brought
to the
> attention of parents. The toilet access restrictions should be
cause enough
> for concern, but when Academies are instituting rules like that and
they're
> exempt from the human rights legislation that might be expected to
provide
> protection, I think there are very serious questions.
>
> As so often with this stuff, I find it hard to believe we're having
to
> address these issues. I certainly never expected school
regulations in my
> country to ever require investigation because of human rights
issues.
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
Yahoo! Groups Links
1633
Marc Draco
Re: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 20:30:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
Doing a parody of fundies is something I've been working on, on and off.
For example: the double act where one guy plays the fundie and the
other plays the translator: Viz:
Fundie: "The bible says that homosexuality is against god's design..."
Translator: "I hate queers!"
Fundie: "...and I would indicate that to young folk"
Translator: "and I tell kids to hate queers too."
And so on. I was hoping to do this live with Stefan (he doesn't know
this yet - o wait, he does now!)
Marc
Roger Stanyard wrote:
->
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com,
Marc Draco <midnight.diamond@...>
wrote:
>
> Just to bone me up, Brian, how exactly is the world's largest herb
> evidence of anything?
>
This is the doing somewhere of one Ray Comfort who apparently woke up
at 4am in the morning with the revelation that bananas have been
prefectly formed by God for eating. He's an American and I've seen a
film clip of him promoting it. At first I thought it was a parody of
dim-witted fundies but no, its the real think. He shows you can stick
it in your mouth, for example (it's that level of intellect) which
has led to the comment by Lenny that the whole thing sounds homo-
erotic.
Well, apparently he has set his own ministry up pushing this sort of
thing so presumably some of the dimwits in Kings Lynn have either
downloaded something off the Internet about him or have been watching
one of the religious TV channels.
The question to ask them when they present this sort of rubbish is
whether the fact you can stick a cucumber/carrot/pickled
onion/anything you chose up your bum is a sign that God must have
designed it.
To make you smile, apparently he and his partner have run into a spot
of bother with the FBI.
And no, its got nothing to do with showing fundies how to stick
cucumbers up their bums.
Roger
1634
John Germain
RE: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 21:00:00
bgcolor="white"
Ripping the piss works every time.
Expose the flaws, the errors.
John
Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
[BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Marc Draco
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:31
PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re:
Cretinistas in Norfolk
Doing a parody of fundies is something I've been
working on, on and off.
For example: the double act where one guy plays the fundie and the other plays
the translator: Viz:
Fundie: "The bible says that homosexuality is against god's
design..."
Translator: "I hate queers!"
Fundie: "...and I would indicate that to young folk"
Translator: "and I tell kids to hate queers too."
And so on. I was hoping to do this live with Stefan (he doesn't know this yet -
o wait, he does now!)
Marc
Roger Stanyard wrote:
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com,
Marc Draco <midnight.diamond@...>
wrote:
>
> Just to bone me up, Brian, how exactly is the world's largest herb
> evidence of anything?
>
This is the doing somewhere of one Ray Comfort who apparently woke up
at 4am in the morning with the revelation that bananas have been
prefectly formed by God for eating. He's an American and I've seen a
film clip of him promoting it. At first I thought it was a parody of
dim-witted fundies but no, its the real think. He shows you can stick
it in your mouth, for example (it's that level of intellect) which
has led to the comment by Lenny that the whole thing sounds homo-
erotic.
Well, apparently he has set his own ministry up pushing this sort of
thing so presumably some of the dimwits in Kings Lynn have either
downloaded something off the Internet about him or have been watching
one of the religious TV channels.
The question to ask them when they present this sort of rubbish is
whether the fact you can stick a cucumber/carrot/pickled
onion/anything you chose up your bum is a sign that God must have
designed it.
To make you smile, apparently he and his partner have run into a spot
of bother with the FBI.
And no, its got nothing to do with showing fundies how to stick
cucumbers up their bums.
Roger
1635
vulcannuk
Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 21:20:00
Ha! We could call it "Nigels guide to becoming a secret bigot". But
seriously, where could we find someone as plain and freaky as
McQouid to play the part? Perhaps Blair would fit the description..
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Marc Draco
<midnight.diamond@...> wrote:
>
> Doing a parody of fundies is something I've been working on, on
and off.
>
> For example: the double act where one guy plays the fundie and the
other
> plays the translator: Viz:
>
> Fundie: "The bible says that homosexuality is against god's
design..."
> Translator: "I hate queers!"
>
> Fundie: "...and I would indicate that to young folk"
> Translator: "and I tell kids to hate queers too."
>
> And so on. I was hoping to do this live with Stefan (he doesn't
know
> this yet - o wait, he does now!)
>
> Marc
1636
John Germain
RE: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 22:10:00
Who is "Blair"?
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
vulcannuk
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 9:21 PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
Ha! We could call it "Nigels guide to becoming a secret bigot". But
seriously, where could we find someone as plain and freaky as
McQouid to play the part? Perhaps Blair would fit the description..
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Marc Draco
<midnight.diamond@...> wrote:
>
> Doing a parody of fundies is something I've been working on, on
and off.
>
> For example: the double act where one guy plays the fundie and the
other
> plays the translator: Viz:
>
> Fundie: "The bible says that homosexuality is against god's
design..."
> Translator: "I hate queers!"
>
> Fundie: "...and I would indicate that to young folk"
> Translator: "and I tell kids to hate queers too."
>
> And so on. I was hoping to do this live with Stefan (he doesn't
know
> this yet - o wait, he does now!)
>
> Marc
Yahoo! Groups Links
1637
vulcannuk
Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 22:40:00
lol, Tony Blair, prime minister. The one who is responsable for
allowing homophobic fundamentalist bigots run our secondary schools on
the tax payers money.
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "John Germain"
<jtg.germainsjy@...> wrote:
>
> Who is "Blair"?
>
> John Germain
> Jersey
> British Channel Islands
1638
Andrew
Re: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 22:38:00
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Stanyard
> The question to ask them when they present this sort of rubbish is
> whether the fact you can stick a cucumber/carrot/pickled
> onion/anything you chose up your bum is a sign that God must have
> designed it.
Or if you need a more genteel approach, just ask them whether they can fit a
pineapple in their mouth the same way they can fit a banana - or didn't
their God create pineapples? If it's a public debate, smilingly produce a
pineapple and ask them to demonstrate. A melon would of course be just as
effective.
Quite honestly I think it's good these people are pushing this angle,
because it's so stupid. The same point was actually used at the beginning
of an episode of The Last of the Summer Wine (British TV comedy) many years
ago. British TV audiences were evidently sensible enough to see the fallacy
in Clegg's question: "If there isn't meaning in the universe, how come
bananas are just the right size for your mouth?"
1639
John Germain
RE: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 23:12:00
You are not permitted to be serious...
Gwan, your having a laugh00
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
vulcannuk
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:40 PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
lol, Tony Blair, prime minister. The one who is responsable for
allowing homophobic fundamentalist bigots run our secondary schools on
the tax payers money.
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "John Germain"
<jtg.germainsjy@...> wrote:
>
> Who is "Blair"?
>
> John Germain
> Jersey
> British Channel Islands
Yahoo! Groups Links
1640
Andrew
Re: Cash for peerages
13/07/2006 22:39:00
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Draco
> The mastermind of this whole sorry affair (the academies) is now a Lord.
> He's also a Xian and in the DfES.
> See any pattern emerging?
> Little wonder the fundies and "normal" faith groups who are being brought
> on board are all, so far, Christians.
Thanks. There are times when I stop to ask myself if this is really
happening. Unfortunately it is.
1641
Timothy Chase
Fwd: ATTN Evo Advocates: The UK Needs Your Help
13/07/2006 23:14:00
The following is the message which I have sent to
creation_evolution_debate and will be sending to TalkOrigin...
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Timothy Chase <timothychase@gmail.com>
Date: 13-Jul-2006 15:11
Subject: ATTN Evo Advocates: The UK Needs Your Help
To: creation_evolution_debate@yahoogroups.com
The following is addressed to Advocates and Activists who will assist
in the defence of evolutionary biology in the United Kingdom...
*
The Current Situation: Britain is faced with a highly organised,
well-funded coalition of fundamentalist Young Earth Creationist groups
including but not limited to the Vardy Foundation, the Christian
Institute, and Creation Research Trust. This creationist coalition is
receiving money and assistance from other parts of the world including
the United States (e.g., the Discovery Institute and possibly the
Chalcedon Foundation, a leading organisation in the
Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement, and extremist organisation
which seeks to replace democracy with theocracy) and Australia
(including Answers in Genesis). As you should already know, these
organisations are attempting to bring Young Earth Creationism into the
science class rooms as a means of promoting the political
anti-democratic ideology and theocratic agenda.
Their propaganda is claiming that they are winning converts in the
academia when in reality their academics consist almost entirely of a
few retired professors who kept their creationist leanings private
until retirement and crackpots who only claim to have advanced
degrees. They formed an "ad hoc committee of concerned twenty-seven
academics" who in reality misrepresented their credentials in a letter
to Estelle Morris (a leading figure in British politics) and formed a
well-coordinated front by extremists to advocate opening science
classes to creationist propaganda and indoctrination in the name of
"fairness" and "objectivity." Their expanding religious academies are
receiving the support of British government while covertly teaching
creationism as a "scientific alternative" to evolutionary biology.
Creationist political ambitions in the UK must be opposed and their
objective to insert creationism into science classes as a means of
politico-religious indoctrination must be stopped.
The Solution: Several existing organisations representing people of
different political, religious and philosophic views are coming
together to form a permanent organisation: what will be the nucleus
of the British equivalent of the National Center for Science
Education. This will be an umbrella organisation to oppose
creationist incursions into schools, to support the teaching of real
science, to coordinate the activities of organisations which share its
fundamental goals while respecting their independence, to facilitate
the exchange of information, the educate the public on the threat
posed to British society by creationism, and to assist in the
formation of coalition organisations among interested parties within
Great Britain and other parts of the United Kingdom.
How can you help?
We need activists, both within the United Kingdom and from other parts
of the world, to assist us in our activities and the achievement of
our goals. If you are interested in participating, please join us and
stay informed by subscribing to:
BlackShadow - a list devoted anti-creationist activism and the
defence of genuine science education
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackshadow
BlackShadow is not a debating forum for creationists, but is expressly
intended for opposing creationist incursions in education and society
and to support and encourage the activism required to succeed in this
objective.
--
Evolving Perspectives
http://evolvingperspectives.blogspot.com
1642
John Germain
RE: Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
13/07/2006 23:20:00
Yes, YOU see it, I see it, but how many fucking SUN-Readers even saw LOTSW?
They were watching repeats or omnibus (?) editions of "OOO, look at them
shagging."
(Or some such.)
Most of those here could pick up an H2G2 reference within seconds of receiving
the post.
(We'll allow Roger a 15-minute start, poor old sod... <g>)
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:38 PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re: Cretinistas in Norfolk
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Stanyard
> The question to ask them when they present this sort of rubbish is
> whether the fact you can stick a cucumber/carrot/pickled
> onion/anything you chose up your bum is a sign that God must have
> designed it.
Or if you need a more genteel approach, just ask them whether they can fit a
pineapple in their mouth the same way they can fit a banana - or didn't
their God create pineapples? If it's a public debate, smilingly produce a
pineapple and ask them to demonstrate. A melon would of course be just as
effective.
Quite honestly I think it's good these people are pushing this angle,
because it's so stupid. The same point was actually used at the beginning
of an episode of The Last of the Summer Wine (British TV comedy) many years
ago. British TV audiences were evidently sensible enough to see the fallacy
in Clegg's question: "If there isn't meaning in the universe, how come
bananas are just the right size for your mouth?"
Yahoo! Groups Links
1643
Lenny Flank
Re: (OT?) What about Europe
13/07/2006 23:42:00
> The discussion about whether we are English/British/United or whatever
> got me wondering. The American fundies have wound up Christians here,
> and Muslims here and in the Middle East. Does anyone know whether they
> are spreading their poison into schools im mainland Europe?
>
I know ICR is backing a small group in France. I don't think they've
gotten very far, though.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
1644
Lenny Flank
Re: Fwd: ATTN Evo Advocates: The UK Needs Your Help
13/07/2006 23:51:00
>
This creationist coalition is
> receiving money and assistance from other parts of the world including
> the United States (e.g., the Discovery Institute and possibly the
> Chalcedon Foundation, a leading organisation in the
> Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement, and extremist organisation
> which seeks to replace democracy with theocracy) and Australia
> (including Answers in Genesis).
I'm not so sure about this part ---- although they and Discovery
Institute are brothers under the feathers, DI doesn't fund any groups
outside the US, AFAIJK, and always does its best to distance itself
from YEC's.
As for the Reconstructionists, the YEC's here in the US do indeed
have ties to them. From my website:
Rushdoony was one of the financial backers for Henry Morris's first
book, The Genesis Flood, and Morris's son John was a co-signer of
several documents produced by the Coalition On Revival, a
Reconstructionist coalition founded in 1984. ICR star debater Duane
Gish was a member of COR's Steering Committee, as was Richard Bliss,
who served as ICR's "curriculum director" until his death. Gish and
Bliss were both co-signers of the COR documents "A Manifesto for the
Christian Church" (COR, July 1986), and the "Forty-Two Articles of
the Essentials of a Christian Worldview" (COR,1989), which declares,
"We affirm that the laws of man must be based upon the laws of God.
We deny that the laws of man have any inherent authority of their own
or that their ultimate authority is rightly derived from or created
by man." ("Forty-Two Essentials, 1989, p. 8).
As for AiG, it's the American section that is funding the UK
creationuts, not the Australian.
Once again, I point out that nobody, absolutely nobody at all
whatsoever, pays the slightest attention to YEC's here in the US,
ever since they got their head chopped off by the Supreme Court in
1987. So, you can safely bet that every American YEC kook who's been
ignored for the past 20 years will high-tail it to the UK to strike
while they think the iron is hot.
Consider it payback for y'all sending all your Puritan religious nuts
to *us* back in the 18th century. (grin)
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
1645
Lenny Flank
Re: Re: Increasing Membership, Bringing in Organizations
14/07/2006 00:03:00
>
> As for Panda's Thumb, Lenny might be in a better position
Well, this isn't my show to run. It's a British show. I'm just a
source of practical advice as far as organizing and tactics. I've,
uh, done that a few times before. ;>
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
1646
Lenny Flank
Re: Proposals
13/07/2006 23:56:00
>> Maybe twenty years from now - just possibly - the creationists will no
> longer be a threat. I certainly wouldn't bet on it.
Nor would I. They are like cancer --- eternal.
They will never give up as long as they have the slightest political
support.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
1647
Timothy Chase
Re: Fwd: ATTN Evo Advocates: The UK Needs Your Help
14/07/2006 00:20:00
On 13/07/06, Lenny Flank <lflank@ij.net> wrote:
>
> I'm not so sure about this part ---- although they and Discovery
> Institute are brothers under the feathers, DI doesn't fund any groups
> outside the US, AFAIJK, and always does its best to distance itself
> from YEC's.
>
> As for the Reconstructionists, the YEC's here in the US do indeed
> have ties to them. From my website:
> ....
I will change the wording to assistance and/or funding. We are fairly
certain that they are receiving some assistance from the Discovery
Institute, the Chalcedon Foundation, and from both the United States
and Australia, so this should be broad enough.
Can't correct what I already sent out to creation_evolution_debate.
However, I will wait for Roger to check and/or make suggestions
regarding the rest prior to sending this out to TalkOrigin and
elsewhere -- we might as well take advantage of the research he's been
doing. I know we would like to get things going quickly, but a little
delay to achieve accuracy would be best.
1648
Doug Devers
Re: Re: Letting Fundamentalists Into the Group
14/07/2006 01:47:00
I'm coming down firmly on the 'science' side of the debate, if you're
contemplating an ideological purge. This forum is interesting, and I'd like
to remain a part of it, even if I don't post much.
Douglas Devers
1649
Timothy Chase
Redraft: ATTN Evo Advocates: The UK Needs Your Help
14/07/2006 02:18:00
REDRAFT - Comments?
The following is addressed to Advocates and Activists who will assist
in the defence of evolutionary biology in the United Kingdom...
*
The Current Situation: Britain is faced with a highly organised,
well-funded coalition of fundamentalist Young Earth Creationist groups
including but not limited to the Vardy Foundation, the Christian
Institute, and Creation Research Trust. This creationist coalition is
receiving assistance from other parts of the world including the
United States (e.g., the Discovery Institute, Answers in Genesis and
quite possibly the Chalcedon Foundation, a leading organisation in the
extremist Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement which seeks to
replace democracy with theocracy) and Australia (including Answers in
Genesis). As you should already know, these organisations are
attempting to bring Young Earth Creationism into the science class
rooms as a means of promoting their political anti-democratic ideology
and theocratic agenda.
Their propaganda is claiming that they are winning converts in the
academia when in reality their academics consist almost entirely of a
few retired professors who kept their creationist leanings private
until retirement and crackpots who only claim to have advanced
degrees. They formed an "ad hoc committee of twenty-seven concerned
academics" who in reality misrepresented their credentials and
associations in a letter to Estelle Morris (a leading figure in
British politics) and formed a well-coordinated front by extremists to
advocate opening science classes to creationist propaganda and
indoctrination in the name of "fairness" and "objectivity." Their
expanding religious academies are receiving the support of British
government while covertly teaching creationism as a "scientific
alternative" to evolutionary biology.
Creationist political ambitions in the UK must be opposed and their
objective to insert creationism into science classes as a means of
politico-religious indoctrination must be stopped.
The Solution: Several existing organisations representing people of
different political, religious and philosophic views are coming
together to form a permanent organisation: what will be the nucleus
of the British equivalent of the National Center for Science
Education.
This will be an umbrella organisation to:
1. oppose creationist incursions into schools;
2. support the teaching of real science;
3. coordinate the activities of organisations which share its
fundamental goals while respecting their independence;
4. facilitate the exchange of information, to educate the public on
the threat posed to British society by creationism; and,
5. assist in the formation of coalition organisations among
interested parties within Great Britain and other parts of the United
Kingdom.
How can you help?
We need activists, both within the United Kingdom and from other parts
of the world, to assist us in our activities and the achievement of
our goals. If you are interested in participating, please join us and
stay informed by subscribing to:
BlackShadow - a list devoted anti-creationist activism and the
defence of genuine science education
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackshadow
BlackShadow is not a debating forum for creationists, but is expressly
intended for opposing creationist incursions in education and society
and to encourage and support the activism required to succeed in this
objective.
1650
John Germain
RE: Redraft: ATTN Evo Advocates: The UK Needs Your Help
14/07/2006 02:51:00
"Advocates" with a capital "A", means here exactly as if in (shit, make your
collective
mind up).....
"The following is addressed to Members of the Jersey Bar and Activists who will
assist
in the defence of evolutionary biology in the United Kingdom...
Guys 'n Gals.. THIS whole think needs to be sat down and got pissed with..
PLEASE DON'T jump before you're pushed..
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Timothy Chase
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 2:18 AM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BlackShadow] Redraft: ATTN Evo Advocates: The UK Needs Your Help
REDRAFT - Comments?
The following is addressed to Advocates and Activists who will assist
in the defence of evolutionary biology in the United Kingdom...
*
The Current Situation: Britain is faced with a highly organised,
well-funded coalition of fundamentalist Young Earth Creationist groups
including but not limited to the Vardy Foundation, the Christian
Institute, and Creation Research Trust. This creationist coalition is
receiving assistance from other parts of the world including the
United States (e.g., the Discovery Institute, Answers in Genesis and
quite possibly the Chalcedon Foundation, a leading organisation in the
extremist Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement which seeks to
replace democracy with theocracy) and Australia (including Answers in
Genesis). As you should already know, these organisations are
attempting to bring Young Earth Creationism into the science class
rooms as a means of promoting their political anti-democratic ideology
and theocratic agenda.
Their propaganda is claiming that they are winning converts in the
academia when in reality their academics consist almost entirely of a
few retired professors who kept their creationist leanings private
until retirement and crackpots who only claim to have advanced
degrees. They formed an "ad hoc committee of twenty-seven concerned
academics" who in reality misrepresented their credentials and
associations in a letter to Estelle Morris (a leading figure in
British politics) and formed a well-coordinated front by extremists to
advocate opening science classes to creationist propaganda and
indoctrination in the name of "fairness" and "objectivity." Their
expanding religious academies are receiving the support of British
government while covertly teaching creationism as a "scientific
alternative" to evolutionary biology.
Creationist political ambitions in the UK must be opposed and their
objective to insert creationism into science classes as a means of
politico-religious indoctrination must be stopped.
The Solution: Several existing organisations representing people of
different political, religious and philosophic views are coming
together to form a permanent organisation: what will be the nucleus
of the British equivalent of the National Center for Science
Education.
This will be an umbrella organisation to:
1. oppose creationist incursions into schools;
2. support the teaching of real science;
3. coordinate the activities of organisations which share its
fundamental goals while respecting their independence;
4. facilitate the exchange of information, to educate the public on
the threat posed to British society by creationism; and,
5. assist in the formation of coalition organisations among
interested parties within Great Britain and other parts of the United
Kingdom.
How can you help?
We need activists, both within the United Kingdom and from other parts
of the world, to assist us in our activities and the achievement of
our goals. If you are interested in participating, please join us and
stay informed by subscribing to:
BlackShadow - a list devoted anti-creationist activism and the
defence of genuine science education
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackshadow
BlackShadow is not a debating forum for creationists, but is expressly
intended for opposing creationist incursions in education and society
and to encourage and support the activism required to succeed in this
objective.
Yahoo! Groups Links
