1301
MB
Re: Dartmouth 4
04/07/2006 15:55:00
>
>
> West Bromwich-born industrialist Mr Payne, who now lives in Wales,
> said there was no question that his sponsorship of the school would
> mean pupils being "indoctrinated" with fundementalist Christian beliefs.
>
Hm. I kinda suspect this is a true statement. There is no question. :(
Regards,
MB
1302
Marc Draco
Re: Dartmouth
04/07/2006 15:44:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
Oh dear, oh dear. Another nutter running the loony bin.
Time to ramp up the campaign a bit, methinks.
The harder Vardy gets hit the less likely other sponsors will want to
step into the wake. That's why we must expose everyone behind the ESF
and show that once fundies get in on the act, the whole place goes to
sh*t.
Adonis needs to be exposed for what he is too. Preferably in the
tabloids.
ukantic wrote:
->
Step Forward For 'World Beater' Academy
http://www.laws.sandwell.gov.uk/ccm/content/councilgeneral/
pressreleases/pressreleaseaug2005/step-forward-for-world-beater-academy.en
http://tinyurl.com/g3ls5
1303
Roger Stanyard
Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 16:06:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "oeditor" <b-jordan@...> wrote:
>
> So: Mackay's UK outfit is headed by an electrician. Now we have a
> plumbing manufacturer buying a school on the cheap.
And, of course, the EST schools are headed by a used car salesman!
1304
Lenny Flank
RE: Nick Cowan: Science Preacher - how did Noah do it?
04/07/2006 16:27:00
Let's take a look at the creationist "radiodating" arguments, shall
we?
RADIO-DATING AND THE CREATION "SCIENTISTS"
by Lenny Flank
(c) 1995
The most commonly-used methods of dating geological formations involve the
process of radioactive decay. Certain atoms are unstable, and their nuclei
sometimes break apart and change into another element through a process known as
"radioactive decay". Some of these radioactive elements transform themselves by
emitting a high-energy particle consisting of two protons and two neutrons, a
process known as "alpha decay". Other radioactive elements decay when a neutron
inside the nucleus breaks into a proton and an
electron. The proton stays in the nucleus, and the electron is ejected at very
high speed--a process known as "beta decay".
Probably the best-known of the radioactive elements is uranium, which is the
heaviest element found in nature. The uranium nucleus comes in several versions.
Each version is known as an "isotope". All isotopes of uranium have 92 protons
in the nucleus (it is the number of protons which determines to which chemical
element an atom belongs), but the number of neutrons can range from 141 to 146.
Thus, the total number of particles in the nucleus (protons plus neutrons) in
uranium can vary from 233 to 238. Each of
these isotopes is identified by its "atomic number"--the total number of
particles in its nucleus. Uranium, for instance, is found in three different
isotopes, uranium-233 (abbreviated chemically as U-233), U-235 and U-238.
All of the isotopes of uranium are radioactive, and decay by emitting an alpha
particle. Through a series of intermediate steps, the U-235 atom will decay to
form an atom of the lead isotope 207 (abbreviated chemically as Pb-207). The
Pb-207 atom does not undergo radioactive decay--it is "stable"--and thus over
time all U-235 will tend to decay to form increasing amounts of Pb-207. Other
chemical elements may have some isotopes that undergo radioactive decay, and
other isotopes that do not decay--they are also
"stable". The other radioactive elements will decay to form different stable
"daughter elements".
Radio-dating is possible because of the fact that the decay of a radioactive
element into its daughter element takes place at a constant rate, known as the
"half-life", and the half-life of various radio-decay rates can be measured very
precisely. U-235, for instance, has a half-life of 713 million years. If we
start with a known quantity of U-235, say one pound, in 713 million years this
material will consist of half U-235 and half Pb-207. In another 713 million
years, half of the remaining uranium will decay,
and the material will now consist of three-fourths lead and one-fourth uranium.
Conversely, if we calculate what the ratio of lead to uranium is in a given
rock, we can calculate the length of time that has passed since the original
uranium started decaying. For instance, if we determine that a rock consists of
one-sixteenth U-235 and fifteen-sixteenths Pb-207, we know that a total of four
half-lives have passed since the original uranium started decaying, and
therefore the rock was formed approximately 2.8 billion years ago.
Since rocks are virtually never found in a pure elemental state, but consist of
a number of different minerals mixed together when the rock was formed, it is
entirely possible (and even likely) that some amount of lead was present along
with the original uranium when the rock was formed, and geologists must
therefore find a way to calculate how much of the lead in any given rock is
"primordial", or present from the beginning, and how much is "radiogenic", or
produced by radio-decay after the rock was formed.
This is done using the fact that the isotope lead-204 is non-radiogenic, and is
not produced by any process of radioactive decay. Any Pb-204 in a given rock,
therefore, must be primordial. And since all of the isotopes of any given
element are chemically identical, there is no way for any natural process to
move Pb-204 into a mass of rock without at the same time moving all of the other
isotopes as well. Thus, in a mass of primordial lead, the ratio of the 204
isotope to the others will remain the same, and this
ratio will depend on the specific concentration of each of the other isotopes at
the time the primordial lead was formed. This varies slightly from place to
place, but the average rate is 15 parts lead-204 in every 1,000 parts of
primordial lead. Thus, when radio-dating a rock using the uranium-lead method,
we can estimate that for every 15 parts of lead-204 we find, 985 parts of
lead-207 are primordial and are not the result of uranium decay. Whatever
lead-207 is left after we subtract this amount must
therefore be radiogenic, and by comparing this amount with the amount of
uranium-235 left, we can calculate an age. (In practice, the actual calculation
is much more complex since there are other lead isotopes which must be taken
into account, but the description here is complete enough to illustrate how the
process works.)
One advantage of the uranium dating method is that rocks which contain U-235
also contain the isotope U-238, which decays to form lead-206 with a half-life
of 4.47 billion years. This provides a method of cross-checking the dating
results by comparing the date calculated from the U-235---Pb-207 series to that
calculated from the U-238---Pb-206 series.
However, since in the uranium-lead process there is no way of precisely
determining the original amount of primordial lead (the best we can do is use an
estimate based on the average concentration of lead-204 found today), some error
is introduced in this part of the calculation (most radio-dates using the
uranium-lead techniques vary by a few percent plus or minus). Therefore the
uranium-lead dating technique tends to give a wider range of dates than other
methods, and it is generally considered to be the least
precise of the radio-dating methods. As a result, it has largely been abandoned
in favor of newer radio-decay methods. However, the oldest rocks so far
discovered on earth have been uranium-dated to approximately 3.6 billion years
old, plus or minus 0.5 billion years, while rocks from meteors and the surface
of the moon, which are believed to have formed at the same time as the earth,
have been dated to about 4.5 billion years. (The original surface of the earth
has long since been destroyed through erosion.)
A much more precise method of radio-dating depends on the decay of the isotope
potassium-40 (chemical abbreviation K-40) to form argon-40 (chemical
abbreviation Ar-40) through beta decay, with a half life of 1.2 billion years.
The precision of the potassium-argon method comes from the means it presents for
determining the original amount of "daughter element" that was present in the
primordial rock, thus eliminating the source of the error in uranium-lead
dating. Many of the minerals containing potassium form
precise crystalline internal structures, with a specific number of potassium
atoms locked into a specific position. And since argon is a chemically-inert
gas, there is little opportunity for any atoms of argon to become trapped within
the crystals (the rocks selected for potassium-argon dating are almost always
volcanic rocks which were liquid at the time they were formed, thus allowing any
gaseous argon contamination to diffuse out of the liquid). Thus, each argon atom
that is found should correspond to exactly
one potassium atom which has undergone decay, and the amount of original
potassium atoms can be known exactly because the mineral crystals will always
contain a set number of potassium atoms per crystal. This makes it possible to
determine the amount of radiogenic argon-40 very precisely, and thus greatly
reduces the error in measuring the ratio of K-40 to Ar-40. And when the
potassium-argon method is used on the oldest terrestrial rocks, we once again
obtain the age of 3.8 billion years, plus or minus one or
two percent. And meteors and moon rocks also date to about 4.5 billion years.
Another very precise method of radio-dating is called "isochron" dating, and
depends on the beta decay of the isotope rubidium-87 (Rb-87) to strontium-87
(Sr-87), with a half-life of 4.8 billion years. The rubidium-strontium method
takes advantage of the fact that three other nonradiogenic isotopes of strontium
are usually found with strontium-87; these are Sr-84, Sr-86 and Sr-88. As with
the isotopes of lead, all of the isotopes of strontium are chemically identical,
and no means exists in nature to move one
isotope without also moving the others, in the same ratios.
In any given mineral, no matter how much primordial strontium was originally
present, the proportion of Sr-87 to Rb-87 will increase over time (as the
rubidium decays to strontium), while the ratio of Sr-87 to each of the
non-radiogenic isotopes (Sr-84, Sr-86 and Sr-88) will also increase. In other
minerals present in the same rock, which may have different initial amounts of
primordial strontium, the proportion of strontium to rubidium will differ (since
they have different amounts of rubidium), but the ratio
of the strontium isotopes to each other will be the same, since they are
chemically identical and cannot be separated. Thus, in each mineral, over time,
the ratio of Sr-87 to Sr-84 or Sr-88 will change, but this change will itself be
proportional to the ratio of rubidium to strontium. When these ratios are
plotted against each other, they will form a straight line. And the slope of
this line will vary according to the change in the ratio of rubidium to
strontium, i.e., according to the age of the rock.
These sloping lines are known as "isochrons", and they present a powerful method
of radio-dating. In this method, there is no need to estimate the amount of
daughter element that may have contaminated the sample, because if any strontium
or rubidium has been removed or added from the original rock, this will produce
a point that lies outside the isochron line, thus indicating that the sample has
been contaminated. In any sample which produces ratios lying on a straight
isochron line, it is a certainty that the
sample is uncontaminated, and the calculated half-life age will be correct.
Using this method, the oldest terrestrial rocks so far found have been dated to
about 3.7 billion years, while moon rocks and meteors have been dated at around
4.2 billion years.
The creationists, of course, cannot accept an age for the earth of approximately
4.5 billion years, and therefore must find some way of demonstrating that the
radio-date ages are incorrect. In his book Scientific Creationism, Henry Morris
lists several reasons why he believes radio-dating is unreliable and should be
discounted. But as we can see, none of these arguments have any validity:
Creationist Problems with Radio-dating:
"Uranium minerals always exist in open systems, not closed. . . Unless the
system is known to have been a closed system through all the ages since its
formation, its age readings are meaningless." (Morris, Scientific Creationism,
1974, pp 140-141)
As we have seen, determining the amount of "primordial" lead that was present
before radio-decay started is indeed a limiting factor in the uranium-lead
dating method. However, the use of lead-204 as a measuring stick allows us to
make a reasonably precise estimate of the amount of original non-radiogenic
lead, since the various isotopes are chemically identical and always are moved
at the same proportion. It is indeed possible that enough lead may have entered
or left the sample to throw off the accuracy of the
date by a few percent, and this is one of the reasons why the uranium-lead
method is no longer used. But even such an error would not be enough to allow
for the possibility of a 6,000 year old earth. (Keep in mind that Morris is here
arguing that enough lead entered the system to change the apparent date from
6,000 years to around 5 billion years, an error factor of almost a million
percent.)
In any case, both the potassium-argon and the rubidium- strontium methods
present precise methods of determining the amount of radiogenic daughter
element, and the isochron method provides a precise method of checking for
contamination.
"An even more important phenomenon by which these balances can be upset is
that of 'free neutron capture', by which free neutrons in the mineral's
environment may be captured by the lead in the system to change the isotopic
value of the lead." (Morris, Scientific Creationism, 1974, p. 141)
While the capture of a neutron by an atomic nucleus is not impossible, it is a
rare process which usually happens only in the presence of a large number of
free neutrons (such as inside a nuclear reactor). There is no evidence that
neutron capture can alter the ratios of geologic lead isotopes to any noticeable
degree. Thus, capture of free neutrons might cause the observed ratio to vary by
a few tenths of a percent, but certainly not near enough to produce such large
errors as the creationists are postulating.
An additional problem is that neutron radiation is lethal to life forms, and a
neutron flow large enough to produce the kinds of errors that the creationists
are postulating would have killed all life and sterilized the planet long ago.
The creationists have no explanation for how life managed to survive their
postulated neutron capture.
"The uranium decay rates may well be variable". (Morris, Scientific
Creationism, 1974, p. 142.
The entire method of radio-dating rests on the fact that the decay rates of
radioactive isotopes, their "half-life", is constant. If the decay rate was
faster or slower in the past than it is now, the entire method becomes
unreliable.
It is somewhat ironic that Morris attempts to use the argument that "the decay
rates might have changed over time" as a criticism of evolutionary theory,
since, according to an earlier chapter of his book, it is the evolutionists who
claim that the basic processes of nature have evolved over time, while the
creationists assert that none of the basic laws of matter have ever changed:
"It seems obvious that the evolution model would predict that matter, energy
and the laws are still evolving since they must have evolved in the past and
there is no external agent to bring such evolution to a halt." (Morris,
Scientific Creationism, 1974, p. 18)
"The creation model conversely supposes that the universe was simply called
into existence by the omnipotence, in accord with the omniscience, of the
Creator . . . The fact is, of course, all observations that have been made to
date confirm the straightforward predictions of the creation model; namely, that
the basic laws of nature are constant and invariable, and that the basic nature
of matter and energy is likewise a constant. There is not as yet the slightest
observational intimation that these entities
are evolving at all." (Morris, Scientific Creationism, 1974, pp 17- 18)
Leaving aside for now the assertion that evolutionary theory predicts that the
laws of nature "are still evolving" (an assertion which has not been made by ANY
evolutionary scientist), we can see that Morris is plainly trying to have it
both ways. The radio- decay rates of an element are determined by the strong and
weak nuclear forces, which are in turn regulated by the laws of quantum
mechanics, one of the most-verified of all scientific models. If radio-decay
rates were different in the past than they are
now, as Morris suggests above, then there must have been fundamental changes
over time in quantum physics and in the structure of matter. Yet, according to
Morris, such a fundamental evolution of natural laws has not taken place. On
page 18 of his book, he asserts that the evolutionists must be wrong because the
basic nature of matter (including, one presumes, quantum physics and the
structure of matter) hasn't changed over time; yet on page 142 he is arguing
that the evolutionists must be wrong because the
basic nature of matter (i.e., quantum physics and the structure of matter) HAS
changed over time. (Later, we will see the assertion that the speed of light,
another basic property of the universe, must also, according to the
creationists, have varied over time.) One wishes that Morris would at least be
consistent in his balderdash.
In any case, there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that radio decay rates
might have differed in the past from their present values, and there are several
reasons from quantum mechanics why one would not expect them to significantly
vary at all. The strong and weak nuclear forces which govern radio-decay are
very powerful, but operate at only very short distances (less than the diameter
of an atomic nucleus). They are not affected by temperature, pressure,
magnetism, or any other known physical phenomenon.
Even under the most extreme environmental conditions which can be produced in
the lab, the decay rates of radioactive elements have not been observed to vary
by more than four percent--Morris's hypothesis requires that these rates must
have varied by up to one million percent. Obviously, Morris's assertion that
radio-decay rates may have varied greatly in the past is completely without
foundation.
"The daughter elements were probably present from the beginning". (Morris,
Scientific Creationism, 1974, p. 143)
As we have seen, estimating the amount of non-radiogenic or "primordial"
daughter element which was present before decay began is a problem (though not
an extremely large problem) with the uranium-lead method. In the K-Ar and Rb-Sr
methods, however, there are methods of precisely determining the ratios of
radio-element and radiogenic daughter element, as well as ways to determine if
the sample has been contaminated.
"Modern rocks formed in 1801 near Hualalei, Hawaii, were found to give
potassium-argon ages ranging from 160 million years to 3 billion years."
(Morris, Scientific Creationism, 1974, p. 147) "It would seem that the only
remaining virtue of potassium ages is that they often yeild ages of millions and
billions of years, and are therefore generally compatible with the evolutionary
model." (Morris, Scientific Creationism, 1974, p. 148)
The implication here is that the potassium-argon method (and by extension all
other radio-dating methods) are wildly inaccurate and give widely divergent
dates, and that therefore evolutionary scientists simply save the ages they like
and toss out those they don't like.
In citing the Hawaii data, however, Morris typically neglects to mention the
whole story. Some of these tests were done on "pillow basalts" which form during
underwater volcanic eruptions.
It was suspected by geologists that dissolved argon gas from the surrounding sea
water might enter the newly emerged lava, and would not be able to escape
quickly enough to dissipate from the rock before it cooled, and that therefore
argon might become trapped inside the potassium crystals. To test this,
geologists selected an area of basalt that was known to have formed during an
eruption in 1801, and used the K-Ar method to date the outer surface. The
average date obtained was 22 million years, thus
demonstrating that such rocks were indeed contaminated and were not suitable for
radio-dating. As geologist G. Brent Dalrymple reported, "The purpose of these
studies was to determine, in a controlled experiment with samples of known age,
the suitability of submarine pillow basalts for dating, because it was suspected
that such samples might be unreliable . . . The results clearly indicated that
these rocks were unsuitable for dating, and so they are not generally used for
this purpose." (cited in Strahler,
1987, p. 206)
The remaining tests were done on each of the islands in the Hawaiian chain. And,
since the Hawaiian Islands were formed several hundred million years apart by
volcanic eruptions and are not all the same age (the large island of Hawaii is
the youngest, and the islands become progressively older as one travels west
along the chain), it should not be surprising that the radio-dates given for
each island will differ from the others.
There are occasionally anamolous radio-dates which are produced in various
laboratories, but these amount to only a few percent of the total. In every
case, reasons for the discrepancy have been found--either geological
contamination or errors in the testing process. None of the creationists has
ever explained why, if all of the radio-dating methods are so unreliable,
hundreds of different samples tested by hundreds of different laboratories all
over the world, using a variety of different radio-dating methods,
have all agreed on the same date for the age of the earth--approximately 4.5
billion years.
===================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
My Reptile Page
http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
1305
Roger Stanyard
Re: Nick Cowan: Science Preacher - how did Noah do it?
04/07/2006 17:21:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...> wrote:
>
> Let's take a look at the creationist "radiodating" arguments, shall
> we?
>
Let's also take a look at a Christian's view of radiometrics (by Dr
Roger Weins, a practising Christian, full paper at
www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html):
Common Misconceptions Regarding Radiometric Dating Methods
There are a number of misconceptions that seem especially prevalent
among Christians. Most of these topics are covered in the above
discussion, but they are reviewed briefly here for clarity.
1. Radiometric dating is based on index fossils whose dates were
assigned long before radioactivity was discovered.
This is not at all true, though it is implied by some young-Earth
literature. Radiometric dating is based on the half-lives of the
radioactive isotopes. These half-lives have been measured over the
last 40-90 years. They are not calibrated by fossils.
2. No one has measured the decay rates directly; we only know them
from inference.
Decay rates have been directly measured over the last 40-100 years.
In some cases a batch of the pure parent material is weighed and then
set aside for a long time and then the resulting daughter material is
weighed. In many cases it is easier to detect radioactive decays by
the energy burst that each decay gives off. For this a batch of the
pure parent material is carefully weighed and then put in front of a
Geiger counter or gamma-ray detector. These instruments count the
number of decays over a long time.
3. If the half-lives are billions of years, it is impossible to
determine them from measuring over just a few years or decades.
The example given in the section titled, "The Radiometric Clocks"
shows that an accurate determination of the half-life is easily
achieved by direct counting of decays over a decade or shorter. This
is because a) all decay curves have exactly the same shape (Fig. 1),
differing only in the half-life, and b) trillions of decays can be
counted in one year even using only a fraction of a gram of material
with a half-life of a billion years. Additionally, lavas of
historically known ages have been correctly dated even using methods
with long half-lives.
4. The decay rates are poorly known, so the dates are inaccurate.
Most of the decay rates used for dating rocks are known to within two
percent. Uncertainties are only slightly higher for rhenium (5%),
lutetium (3%), and beryllium (3%), discussed in connection with Table
1. Such small uncertainties are no reason to dismiss radiometric
dating. Whether a rock is 100 million years or 102 million years old
does not make a great deal of difference.
5. A small error in the half-lives leads to a very large error in the
date.
Since exponents are used in the dating equations, it is possible for
people to think this might be true, but it is not. If a half-life is
off by 2%, it will only lead to a 2% error in the date.
6. Decay rates can be affected by the physical surroundings.
This is not true in the context of dating rocks. Radioactive atoms
used for dating have been subjected to extremes of heat, cold,
pressure, vacuum, acceleration, and strong chemical reactions far
beyond anything experienced by rocks, without any significant change.
The only exceptions, which are not relevant to dating rocks, are
discussed under the section, "Doubters Still Try", above.
page 24
7. A small change in the nuclear forces probably accelerated nuclear
clocks during the first day of creation a few thousand years ago,
causing the spuriously old radiometric dates of rocks.
Rocks are dated from the time of their formation. For it to have any
bearing on the radiometric dates of rocks, such a change of nuclear
forces must have occurred after the Earth (and the rocks) were
formed. To make the kind of difference suggested by young-Earth
proponents, the half-lives must be shortened from several billion
years down to several thousand years--a factor of at least a million.
But to shorten half-lives by factors of a million would cause large
physical changes. As one small example, recall that the Earth is
heated substantially by radioactive decay. If that decay is speeded
up by a factor of a million or so, the tremendous heat pulse would
easily melt the whole Earth, including the rocks in question! No
radiometric ages would appear old if this happened.
8. The decay rates might be slowing down over time, leading to
incorrect old dates.
There are two ways we know this didn't happen: a) we have checked
them out with "time machines", and b) it doesn't make sense
mathematically. Both of these points are explained in the section
titled, "Can We Really Believe the Dating Systems?"
9. We should measure the "full-life" (the time at which all of the
parent is gone) rather than the half-life (the time when half of it
is gone).
Unlike sand in an hourglass, which drops at a constant rate
independent of how much remains in the top half of the glass, the
number of radioactive decays is proportional to the amount of parent
remaining. Figure 1 shows how after 2 half-lives, 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 is
left, and so on. After 10 half-lives there is 2-10 = 0.098%
remaining. A half-life is more easy to define than some point at
which almost all of the parent is gone. Scientists sometimes instead
use the term "mean life", that is, the average life of a parent atom.
The mean life is always 1/ln(2) = 1.44 times the half-life. For most
of us half-life is easier to understand.
10. To date a rock one must know the original amount of the parent
element. But there is no way to measure how much parent element was
originally there.
It is very easy to calculate the original parent abundance, but that
information is not needed to date the rock. All of the dating schemes
work from knowing the present abundances of the parent and daughter
isotopes. The original abundance N0, of the parent is simply N0 = N
ekt, where N is the present abundance, t is time, and k is a constant
related to the half life.
11. There is little or no way to tell how much of the decay product,
that is, the daughter isotope, was originally in the rock, leading to
anomalously old ages.
A good part of this article is devoted to explaining how one can tell
how much of a given element or isotope was originally present.
Usually it involves using more than one sample from a given rock. It
is done by comparing the ratios of parent and daughter isotopes
relative to a stable isotope for samples with different relative
amounts of the parent isotope. For example, in the rubidium-strontium
method one compares rubidium-87/strontium-86 to strontium-
87/strontium-86 for different minerals. From this one can determine
how much of the daughter isotope would be present if there had been
no parent isotope. This is the same as the initial amount (it would
not change if there were no parent isotope to decay). Figures 4 and
5, and the accompanying explanation, tell how this is done most of
the time. While this is not absolutely 100% foolproof, comparison of
several dating methods will always show whether the given date is
reliable.
page 25
12. There are only a few different dating methods.
This article has listed and discussed a number of different
radiometric dating methods and has also briefly described a number of
non-radiometric dating methods. There are actually many more methods
out there. Well over forty different radiometric dating methods are
in use, and a number of non-radiogenic methods not even mentioned
here.
13. "Radiation halos" in rocks prove that the Earth was young.
This refers to tiny halos of crystal damage surrounding spots where
radioactive elements are concentrated in certain rocks. Halos thought
to be from polonium, a short-lived element produced from the decay of
uranium, have been found in some rocks. A plausible explanation for a
halo from such a short-lived element is that these were not produced
by an initial concentration of the radioactive element. Rather, as
water seeped through cracks in the minerals, a chemical change caused
newly-formed polonium to drop out of solution at a certain place and
almost immediately decay there. A halo would build up over a long
period of time even though the center of the halo never contained
more than a few atoms of polonium at one time. "Hydrothermal" effects
can act in ways that at first seem strange, such as the well-known
fact that gold--a chemically un-reactive metal with very low
solubilities--is concentrated along quartz veins by the action of
water over long periods of time. Other researchers have found halos
produced by an indirect radioactive decay effect called hole
diffusion, which is an electrical effect in a crystal. These results
suggest that the halos in question are not from short-lived isotopes
after all.
At any rate, halos from uranium inclusions are far more common.
Because of uranium's long half-lives, these halos take at least
several hundred million years to form. Because of this, most people
agree that halos provide compelling evidence for a very old Earth.
14. A young-Earth research group reported that they sent a rock
erupted in 1980 from Mount Saint Helens volcano to a dating lab and
got back a potassium-argon age of several million years. This shows
we should not trust radiometric dating.
There are indeed ways to "trick" radiometric dating if a single
dating method is improperly used on a sample. Anyone can move the
hands on a clock and get the wrong time. Likewise, people actively
looking for incorrect radiometric dates can in fact get them.
Geologists have known for over forty years that the potassium-argon
method cannot be used on rocks only twenty to thirty years old.
Publicizing this incorrect age as a completely new finding was
inappropriate. The reasons are discussed in the Potassium-Argon
Dating section above. Be assured that multiple dating methods used
together on igneous rocks are almost always correct unless the sample
is too difficult to date due to factors such as metamorphism or a
large fraction of xenoliths.
15. Low abundances of helium in zircon grains show that these
minerals are much younger than radiometric dating suggests.
Zircon grains are important for uranium-thorium-lead dating because
they contain abundant uranium and thorium parent isotopes. Helium is
also produced from the decay of uranium and thorium. However, as a
gas of very small atomic size, helium tends to escape rather easily.
Researchers have studied the rates of diffusion of helium from
zircons, with the prediction from one study by a young-Earth
creationist suggesting that it should be quantitatively retained
despite its atomic size. The assumptions of the temperature
conditions of the rock over time are most likely unrealistic in this
case.
16. The fact that radiogenic helium and argon are still degassing
from the Earth's interior prove that the Earth must be young.
The radioactive parent isotopes, uranium and potassium, have very
long half-lives, as shown in Table 1. These parents still exist in
abundance in the Earth's interior, and are still producing helium and
argon. There is also a time lag between the production of the
daughter products and their degassing. If the Earth were geologically
very young, very little helium and argon would have been produced.
One can compare the amount of argon in the atmosphere to what would
be expected from decay of potassium over 4.6 billion years, and in
fact it is consistent.
page 26
17. The waters of Noah's flood could have leached radioactive
isotopes out of rocks, disturbing their ages.
This is actually suggested on one website! While water can affect the
ability to date rock surfaces or other weathered areas, there is
generally no trouble dating interior portions of most rocks from the
bottom of lakes, rivers, and oceans. Additionally, if ages were
disturbed by leaching, the leaching would affect different isotopes
at vastly different rates. Ages determined by different methods would
be in violent disagreement. If the flood were global in scope, why
then would we have any rocks for which a number of different methods
all agree with each other? In fact, close agreement between methods
for most samples is a hallmark of radiometric dating.
18. We know the Earth is much younger because of non-radiogenic
indicators such as the sedimentation rate of the oceans.
There are a number of parameters which, if extrapolated from the
present without taking into account the changes in the Earth over
time, would seem to suggest a somewhat younger Earth. These arguments
can sound good on a very simple level, but do not hold water when all
the factors are considered. Some examples of these categories are the
decaying magnetic field (not mentioning the widespread evidence for
magnetic reversals), the saltiness of the oceans (not counting
sedimentation!), the sedimentation rate of the oceans (not counting
Earthquakes and crustal movement, that is, plate tectonics), the
relative paucity of meteorites on the Earth's surface (not counting
weathering or plate tectonics), the thickness of dust on the moon
(without taking into account brecciation over time), the Earth-Moon
separation rate (not counting changes in tides and internal forces),
etc. While these arguments do not stand up when the complete picture
is considered, the case for a very old creation of the Earth fits
well in all areas considered.
19. Only atheists and liberals are involved in radiometric dating.
The fact is that there are a number of Bible-believing Christians who
are involved in radiometric dating, and who can see its validity
firsthand. A great number of other Christians are firmly convinced
that radiometric dating shows evidence that God created the Earth
billions, not thousands, of years ago.
page 27
20. Different dating techniques usually give conflicting results.
This is not true at all. The fact that dating techniques most often
agree with each other is why scientists tend to trust them in the
first place. Nearly every college and university library in the
country has periodicals such as Science, Nature, and specific geology
journals that give the results of dating studies. The public is
usually welcome to (and should!) browse in these libraries. So the
results are not hidden; people can go look at the results for
themselves. Over a thousand research papers are published a year on
radiometric dating, essentially all in agreement. Besides the
scientific periodicals that carry up-to-date research reports,
specific suggestions are given below for further reading, both for
textbooks, non-classroom books, and web resources.
page 28
Or, Nick, are you telling us yet again, that you represent the
Christian view of the world?
1306
Rudy Vonk
Flood Science
04/07/2006 17:54:00
Lenny, I hadn't seen your 1995 essays before - very, very good!
I cannot be bothered to check out again how many generations after 4004
BCE the "flood" is supposed to have happened, but I will assume not a
lot since there were so few humans to put on board the Ark.
Nevertheless, even then, a "universal flood" is bound to have been
noticed by other, contemporary, literate societies like the Egyptians,
the Sumerians, the Chinese, etc. Yet no mention in their written
records. (The Egyptians had, until the Assuan dam and such, floods;
they just didn't cover the entire world... The Mesopotamians also had
floods, but managed to survive to write about them yet make no mention
of being guests on USS Ark.)
O wait! How stupid of me! None of these guys existed until some Ark
survivor ran off to China, etc., and invented the Chinese, etc.
"Flood" = hogwash, codswallop, bovine feces, female geriatric fiction,
and so on.
1307
oeditor
Re: Dartmouth 3
04/07/2006 18:15:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <ukantic@...> wrote:
>
> Step Forward For 'World Beater' Academy
>
> http://www.laws.sandwell.gov.uk/ccm/content/councilgeneral/
>
pressreleases/pressreleaseaug2005/step-forward-for-world-beater-academy.en
>
> http://tinyurl.com/g3ls5
>
> The Academy -- due to open its doors at the Great Barr site in 2008
> will attract investment of over �20 million.
No it won't, it will attract £2 million of investment and over £18
million of public funds. Fundies lying again.
> Sponsor Mr Payne said: "I am delighted that the Government is giving
> us its full backing."
I'll bet he will!
> "The Design and Enterprise Academy"
Interesting choice of name!
Brian
1308
MB
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 18:10:00
>>
>> So: Mackay's UK outfit is headed by an electrician. Now we have a
>> plumbing manufacturer buying a school on the cheap.
>
> And, of course, the EST schools are headed by a used car salesman!
>
>
I am not at all sure we are making sense by complaining about the rich
backers' jobs. It's when they get to "teaching science" that we have a
right to bitch. But the job-background griping just sounds sorta
sour-grapes after a while.
I mean, many of us work in computers or other jobs, not directly related
to evolution. And we have strong opinions *on science*.
If we had some rich car salesman or plumber who was also truly interested
in backing science education we'd not complain at all! :)
Regards,
MB
1309
Roger Stanyard
Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 18:43:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <mbb386@...> wrote:
>
>
> >>
> >> So: Mackay's UK outfit is headed by an electrician. Now we have a
> >> plumbing manufacturer buying a school on the cheap.
> >
> > And, of course, the EST schools are headed by a used car salesman!
> >
> >
>
> I am not at all sure we are making sense by complaining about the rich
> backers' jobs.
It was meant to be tongue in cheek banter, MB.
1310
MB
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 19:01:00
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <mbb386@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> So: Mackay's UK outfit is headed by an electrician. Now we have a
>> >> plumbing manufacturer buying a school on the cheap.
>> >
>> > And, of course, the EST schools are headed by a used car salesman!
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I am not at all sure we are making sense by complaining about the rich
>> backers' jobs.
>
> It was meant to be tongue in cheek banter, MB.
>
>
Good. :) Because I firmly think that if we could find a rich plumber who'd
be interested in underwriting a Science Academy we'd not turn down her
Pounds or Dollars! :)
I guess I've read these comments about used-car-salesman etc. so often
that they began to get under my skin. I'm not a scientist, not at all. And
my donation to Dover was not refused on that account. :)
You know what I mean. We've got to be careful not to sound whiney. Leave
that to *them*! :)
I *love* your commentary about Australian Toads. :) That's a keeper.
Regards,
MB
1311
Marc Draco
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 19:07:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
The point, Mike, is that we're not running schools. They are.
The point about people like Vardy (as a for instance) is that he COULD
have just given Sunderland's LEA £2mil and Middlesbrough's too. He
didn't. He chose to buy an entire school and IMPOSE his beliefs on the
people there. You should read some of the crap that Vardy's people
spout - it's on their website (and refuted to death on Pete's).
For instance, they don't get the theory of evolution they get the
"theory" of evolution. These people are in charge of three major
schools and they can't even be honest on about the KS4 science
curricula. One wonders what else they are up to.
That's why we get ticked off.
It's like tabloid journalism, but it works.
MB wrote:
->
>>
>> So: Mackay's UK outfit is headed by an electrician. Now we
have a
>> plumbing manufacturer buying a school on the cheap.
>
> And, of course, the EST schools are headed by a used car salesman!
>
>
I am not at all sure we are making sense by complaining about the rich
backers' jobs. It's when they get to "teaching science" that we have a
right to bitch. But the job-background griping just sounds sorta
sour-grapes after a while.
I mean, many of us work in computers or other jobs, not directly related
to evolution. And we have strong opinions *on science*.
If we had some rich car salesman or plumber who was also truly
interested
in backing science education we'd not complain at all! :)
Regards,
MB
1312
MB
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 19:48:00
> The point, Mike, is that we're not running schools. They are.
I understand that. I'm sorry *we've* not got schools. :(
>
> The point about people like Vardy (as a for instance) is that he COULD
> have just given Sunderland's LEA £2mil and Middlesbrough's too. He
> didn't. He chose to buy an entire school and IMPOSE his beliefs on the
> people there. You should read some of the crap that Vardy's people spout
> - it's on their website (and refuted to death on Pete's).
Exactly. It's the *IMPOSE beliefs* that's the problem, not where he got
his money. It's sorta strawman to poke fun at his career. That's what gets
under my skin.
>
> That's why we get ticked off.
I understand. I'm ticked too. It happens where I live - not quite the
same, because it's US not UK, but similar.
And their/his religious beliefs (and my religious beliefs and your
religious beliefs) do *not* belong in science class.
... though I sure would like to learn to make money like that! :))) That
indicates real expertise. ;)
Regards,
MB
1313
ukantic
Dartmouth 5
04/07/2006 19:59:00
Agenda Item 4 Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council
Report to the Cabinet Member for Schools and Lifelong Learning
19th June 2006
cmis.sandwell.gov.uk/CMISWebPublic/Binary.ashx?Document=18343
Outcome of Statutory Consultation on the Proposal to Close Dartmouth
High School prior the establishment of an Academy on the school site
(Forward Plan Ref No: SLL020(b))
1. Summary Statement
1.1 Following an initial period of consultation, the Cabinet Member
for Schools and Lifelong Learning on 10th April 2006 approved the
publication of statutory proposals relating to a proposal to close
Dartmouth High School to facilitate the opening of a Design and
Enterprise Academy on the school site.
1.2 Statutory notices were issued to close Dartmouth High School with
effect from 31 August 2008 on condition that by the date of closure an
agreement has been made under section 482(1) of the Education Act 1996
for the establishment of an Academy to replace Dartmouth High School.
1.3 The proposal was published on 24 April 2006 in the local press and
by the posting of statutory notices at the school and in the
community. The period of notice was six weeks. By the expiry of the
period of notice on 5 June 2006, 18 written objections had been
received together with a 16-name petition opposing the proposal.
1.4 If the Cabinet Member, having considered the objections and the
recommendations, makes the decision to proceed with the proposal to
close Dartmouth High School the matter will be referred to the School
Organisation Committee.
Further details are attached for your information
1
2. Recommendations
2.1 That consideration be given to all responses made and received
during the period of statutory consultation.
2.2 That, having taken the results of consultation into account,
approval be given to the closure of Dartmouth High School with effect
from 31 August 2008 on the condition that by the date of closure an
agreement has been made under section 482(1) of the Education Act 1996
for the establishment of an academy to replace Dartmouth High School.
2.3 That the proposal set out in 2.2 above be referred to the School
Organisation Committee for a final decision.
In accordance with the authority delegated to the Cabinet Member for
Schools and Lifelong Learning, the following course of action has been
agreed, which will be set out in the formal record of the decisions
taken by the Member:
(1) the recommendation(s) above is/are approved.
(2) the recommendation(s) above is/are approved as now amended.
(3) the recommendations above are not approved.
_________________________________
Cabinet Member for Schools and Lifelong Learning
Date: 19th June 2006
Penelope Penn-Howard
Director of Schools
Contact Officer
June Maw, Service Manager – Access Service
Tel No: 0121 569 8212
2
Outcome of Statutory Consultation on the Proposal to Close Dartmouth
High School prior the establishment of an Academy on the school site
3. Strategic Resource Implications
3.1 Financial implications are contained in the main body of the report.
4. Legal and Statutory Implications
4.1 Consultations have been carried out in accordance with the
guidance described below:-
DfES: Guidance on School Organisation Statutory Proposals including
the Secretary of State's statutory guidance to Local Education
Authorities, School Organisation Committees and Adjudicators, (issued
under section 28(5), 29(4) and 31(4) of and paragraphs 3(4)(a),
3(7)(b) and 4(4) of Schedule 6 to the School Standards and Framework
Act 1998, section 70(7) of the Education Act 2002 and regulation 13 of
the Education (Additional Secondary School Proposals) Regulations 2003).
4.2 Consideration will be given to the results of the consultation
before making any further decisions relating to the proposal.
5. Implications for the Council's Corporate Priorities
The recommendations in this report would, if implemented,
significantly contribute towards raising standards in schools.
6. Background Details
6.1 Following an initial period of consultation, the Cabinet Member
for Schools and Lifelong Learning agreed, on 10 April 2006, to the
publication of statutory proposals to close Dartmouth High School to
facilitate the opening of a Design and Enterprise Academy on the
school site.
The Education and Lifelong Learning Scrutiny Panel considered this
decision on 17 May 2006 and decided not to comment on the technical
closure of Dartmouth High School in order to facilitate the opening of
a Design and Enterprise Academy on 31 August 2008. However the Panel
had a number of questions in relation to the proposals to establish an
academy. These are shown in 6.3.4 below.
3
6.2 The proposal was published on 24 April 2006 in the local press and
by the posting of statutory notices at the school and in the
community, the period of notice was six weeks and by the expiry of the
period of notice 18 written objections had been received together with
a 16-name petition.
6.3 Consultation responses
6.3.1 The statutory consultation process requests that objections only
are submitted. These, plus the questions raised by the Education and
Lifelong Scrutiny Panel, are represented below. However, the Authority
has received much positive feedback about the establishment of an
Academy on the Dartmouth site both during the initial period of
consultation and since from the community and the Parent Teacher
Association at the school.
6.3.2 Where reservations have been expressed, these generally reflect
the desire for further information about the way the Academy will
operate alongside other schools in Sandwell, the curriculum to be
provided and the role of the sponsors.
6.3.3 The Dartmouth High School Governing Body is minded to object to
the proposal as detailed information concerning the school's
replacement was "still not to hand". The Governors stated that the
objection should not be construed as indication as opposition or
support for an Academy. The Governing Body's views were presented to
the Cabinet Member at the meeting held on 10 April 2006.
6.3.4 The Standing Joint Committee of Sandwell Teachers' Associations
submitted the following statement:
"The Standing Joint Committee formally opposes the closure of
Dartmouth High School and the establishment of an Academy in its place".
The Sandwell Branch of the National Union of Teachers (NUT) submitted
an additional objection, which will be available for inspection in the
Members Room. In summary, the NUT view is that "to give away Local
Authority assets to a potentially undemocratic and unaccountable
Governing Body controlled by the sponsor is a betrayal of local people
and a diminution of democracy".
Further, the NUT view is that "it will undermine Sandwell LA's ability
to plan education developments in the future and put at risk
Sandwell's services to other schools".
6.3.5 A number of parents formed the "Dartmouth Parents Action Group"
(DPAG) which held meetings during the consultation period, and most of
the parental responses are from members of this group. A 16-name
petition was also received together with a document, which the DPAG
states represents the views of those attending the meetings and of
other parents, prospective parents and members of the community. The
recommendations raised and the responses of individual parents will be
available for inspection in the Members Room prior to the meeting.
6.3.6 A number of questions were also raised by the Education and
Lifelong
Learning Scrutiny Committee. All the objections, questions and
recommendations made are summarised in the following categories and
responses follow each:
1. What was the selection criteria for choosing a sponsor for the
proposed Academy and what were the reasons for selecting the Paynes?
The criteria for selecting a sponsor was reported to the Cabinet
Member at a previous meeting but was primarily concerned with
selecting an ethical sponsor. It was judged that the Paynes are
ethical sponsors. The Paynes have local connections as their business
was formerly located in Sandwell. Their business background has direct
relevance to the proposed specialisms in Design and Enterprise.
2. Who controls the curriculum, governance, term dates etc and who
will be involved in the appointment of the Head Teacher ?
The Academy will teach the National Curriculum with a specialism in
Design and Enterprise. The Principal, working with the Governing Body
and overseen by the requirements of Ofsted and HMI, will be
responsible for the delivery of a broad and balanced curriculum for
all pupils. The establishment of school term and holiday dates will be
the responsibility of the Governing Body working in conjunction with
the Local Authority which has responsibility for setting term dates
for all other schools in the area. Sandwell also consults with
neighbouring Local Authorities to ensure maximum consistency in school
terms and holidays across the West Midlands.
The sponsors, the DfES and the Local Authority will be responsible for
the appointment of the Principal, with input to the process from
pupils and the school community.
3. What is the role of the LA in controlling the curriculum?
The LA will provide support in planning and delivery of the
curriculum. It will take the usual role in helping schools evaluate
the effectiveness of the curriculum. The LA is encouraging all
secondary schools to become more autonomous giving the Governors and
the leadership the ability and resources to make the best decisions
for the young people in their school. In this way standards of
achievement will rise more quickly to levels we aspire to. The Academy
will work in partnership with other Sandwell schools to deliver the
14-19 curriculum.
Will the curriculum change if the sponsor so decides?
No, the curriculum will develop as a result of the processes outlined
in the previous paragraph and if there are changes in national
government policy.
4 . Explain the Sponsors role and the involvement of the Saltmine
Trust and their level of influence in the running of the school.
The sponsors provide a contribution to the capital funding of the
Academy. Sponsor governors alongside staff, parent and local community
governors, will oversee the general running of the Academy. The
Saltmine Trust will have no influence in the running of the school.
5. What will the admissions policy be? Will the sponsor have the power
to change it?
The admissions policy as consulted upon is the same as that for
Sandwell community and controlled schools and focuses on the school as
the heart of its community. The admissions policy will form part of
the funding agreement between the Academy and the DfES and the Academy
will have to consult locally and with the Secretary of State before
being able to change the policy.
6. What will happen if the Academy is over subscribed? How will
entrants be selected if they are all local?
Highest priority is given to looked after pupils and those with
special educational needs which can best be met by the school, with
next priority being given to siblings of those already on roll.
Thereafter places will be offered on the basis of distance between
each applicant's home and the Academy, with those living closest being
offered places first.
7. As there will be 200 fewer places at the Academy, will the capacity
of intake be reduced? If so which year will this come into effect?
The proposed Academy will have 180 places in each year group, which is
approximately equal to the number of pupils currently in each year
group. As the Academy is proposed to open in 2008 the new number will
apply from then, although the local authority will have to consider
transition arrangements in the light of the proposed building works.
Any proposal to reduce the intake in advance of 2008 would have to be
taken by the Schools' Adjudicator.
8. What measures will be taken to ensure that the existing Head
Teacher and good staff at Dartmouth High School are retained during
the transitional period to ensure good standards of education for
pupils at the proposed Academy?
A major task of the DfES Education Adviser, working with the DfES
Project Lead and the LA, is to ensure that the excellent progress made
by Dartmouth High School thus far is maintained and improved upon.
This is attained through regular visits, support and the setting of
targets. Staff will transfer to the Academy through the TUPE process.
There are ongoing discussions with the trade unions with reference to
the retention of Dartmouth staff.
9. What are the arrangements for the transfer of staff and the
undertaking of the School and are they fit for purpose?
The transfer of all staff is subject to the spirit and letter of the
TUPE regulations. The Authority is working closely, and will continue
to work with the trade unions on the developing arrangements for staff
transfer.
10. What additional resources will be brought in to support the
transitional arrangements?
The LA and the DfES will work with the Governors of Dartmouth to
ensure that the school continues to improve and transitional
arrangements are in place. The DfES makes resources available to the
Governing body to support this process including an advisor who has
already been working with the school. There will be high levels of
support offered by the Local Authority to staff to ensure smooth
transition. In addition, we are working closely with the School Head
and the school staff to ensure that transitional arrangements are
maintained. Temporary accommodation will be of a higher standard in
many cases than that of the existing accommodation.
11. What will be the process for changing the policies of the proposed
Academy?
The central policies of the Academy will be part of the Funding
Agreement between the DfES and the Academy. These cannot be amended
without the agreement of the Secretary of State and generally must be
subject to local consultation.
12. Will the policies agreed at the time of signing the funding
agreement have a minimum life? How long before they can be changed?
The central policies of the academy including SEN, admissions,
exclusions and equal opportunities, are established by the Funding
Agreement, monitored by OfSTED and HMI and cannot be altered without
the agreement of the Secretary of State.
13. Will parents still have an avenue of appeal to the LEA?
For appeals against non admission to Academies, appeals are made to an
appeal panel, which is independent of the Academy. If there are
concerns about the process or conduct of any appeals, although not
just the decision of the panel, the Local Government Ombudsman is
empowered to investigate these. These arrangements are the same for
all publicly funded schools. Other complaints will be made to, and
considered by, the Secretary of State.
14. What is the reason for closing Dartmouth High School and what can
an Academy offer that is not already being offered?
The building of 3 additional Academies is an integral part of the LA's
BSF strategy. Dartmouth was chosen as one of the 3 partly based on a
history of underachievement and partly to ensure the highest possible
investment in an area that has typically missed out in the past.
Transforming Dartmouth into an Academy will enable the LA to provide
the young people in the area with modern, world class facilities,
bringing a 21st century learning experience. The Academy programme
brings together a wider group of partners to delver innovation and
challenge. The Academy will build on the strengths in Design of the
current school and offer industry standard facilities. The process of
closing Dartmouth is a formal technicality in order to enable it to
transform into an Academy.
15. What are the alternatives, if the Academy does not go ahead what
will happen to Dartmouth High School? Will LA funding reduce if the
Academy does not go ahead?
If the Academy does not go ahead the business case for BSF will need
to be reconfigured so that Dartmouth can be included in that
programme. The LA will be able to spend in the region of £10 -£12
million less on Dartmouth within BSF than the estimated cost for the
Academy.
16. Under what circumstances would the Academy not go ahead?
Progress could be halted if there were to be significant adverse
circumstances discovered through the Feasibility or, less likely, the
Implementation process. The purpose of the Feasibility stage is to
investigate any possibility of adverse circumstances and to take
actions to overcome these.
17.As the DfES has stated that it will not fund a swimming pool on the
Academy site, where will the Academy be built? What effect will that
have on current facilities at Dartmouth High School such as the sports
facilities?
The siting of the new Academy buildings will need to take into account
a wide range of environmental and development factors, including
motorway noise, access, green belt, and other planning issues. There
is also the need to allow the existing school to continue to operate
through the construction phase.
Some decant of existing buildings will be needed in the construction
phase. Sports facilities will be protected although the existing
swimming pool will be lost. On completion, the Academy will have
substantially better facilities than the existing school. There will
be improved indoor and outdoor sports facilities, but it is not
proposed to build a replacement swimming pool as part of the Academy
development. Neither the Academy programme nor the BSF programme have
funding for swimming pools. A plan to ensure access to swimming
facilities is currently being developed.
18.How will it be ensured that the community will be able to access
facilities at the Academy? Not purely at the behest of the school but
within the Council's Extended Schools Initiative?
In the expression of interest the Sponsor gave a commitment to be a
school for the community and discussions have taken place for the
Academy to be an extended school. The LA will take a similar role to
that in maintained schools in responding to any concerns expressed by
members of the community of difficulties in accessing facilities.
19. Who will own the Academy and who will own the land it is built
upon? If it is a charitable trust what is the name of this trust?
The Academy, like most schools, is held in trust for the delivery of
education for the benefit of all people in the local community. The
land is provided by the Local Authority and will revert to the LA if
the Academy ceases to operate. The name of the charitable trust is not
yet decided.
20.Clarify the legal position if the sponsor is on the Management
Committee of that trust, does that not mean that the sponsor is in
control of the Academy and the Land?
The Sponsor will not "control" the land (see above). The Trust is
subject to the same legislation as any other charity or school. No one
person can take control. There is national legislation, which prevents
this.
21.Have the sponsors decided on a name for the proposed Academy?
At the consultation evenings held at Dartmouth attendees were advised
of a number of possible names. It was agreed that the final decision
on the name of the Academy would rest with the existing students. This
was confirmed in the brochure distributed at the consultation meetings
and also in a letter sent to all existing parents by the Project
Manager and the Head Teacher. Students at Dartmouth are currently
being consulted.
22. What are the governance arrangements and democratic structures for
the proposed Academy?
The Governing Body will be subject to exactly the same regulations as
any other school funded by the public. The governance arrangements and
democratic structures will form part of the Funding Agreement.
23. How will the Governing Body of the Academy be accountable to local
communities?
The Governing Body will be accountable to the local community in the
same way as all publicly schools are and will include parent and local
community representatives.
24. To ensure true local accountability the Governing Body is:-
- To consider having more than one Parent Governor.
- To consider having more than one Community Rep.
- To ensure the community diversity is represented.
This will be considered when the Governing body is set up. The Sponsor
is committed to ensuring that the Governance model for the Academy
best suits the needs of the students and the aspirations of the whole
community.
The composition of the governing body will be agreed before the
funding agreement is signed and will form part of that funding agreement.
25. Will the Governing Body be regulated by the LA?
The Governing Body will be regulated by national legislation. The
regulations will form part of the Funding Agreement.
26. How will the diversity of the local community be reflected in all
aspects of the school?
Diversity of the local community will be reflected in all aspects of
the proposed Academy by following the processes that are established
now and by working with stakeholder engagement from the feasibility
stage. The project is working through the establishment of such
community involvement at the present time.
27. Will there be robust formal ongoing consultations with the Multi
Faith Groups and the Multi Faith Network to enshrine "Unity within
Diversity" and how will this operate?
Yes. The Principal and the Governing Body will establish a close
working relationship with the multi-faith network to enshrine Unity
within Diversity. The ethos statement has been recently revisited by
the sponsor's representative, the project managers and the Head
Teacher of the current school and has been modified slightly. The
inter-Faith Group has met to discuss the modified statement.
28. What are the benefits and opportunities of the Wolverhampton
University as the Academy's lead education partner? What proof exists
that the University is providing value for money?
Wolverhampton University bring expertise and status of a quality HE
institution to the project. Wolverhampton University is ranked at one
of the top 11 institutions in the country for initial teacher
training. The project has already benefited from contacts the
university has in Holland. A contract over the services that will be
provided for the Academy and BSF programmes is being negotiated.
29. What measures are to be taken to ensure that Wolverhampton
University will provide effective support as the Academy's lead
education partner?
A contract for the services that will be provided is being put in
place. The University is accountable to the project through the
Project Steering Group. A key objective of Wolverhampton University is
to enshrine the community dimension within Academies and to enable
local access to higher education.
30. What is the communication process to ensure that parents,
prospective parents and other interested parties are kept informed of
progress as it develops?
Regular consultations - personal, written and via the internet will
take place throughout feasibility, implementation and into the
establishment of the Academy. A website is being established, 6 weekly
staff consultation is being undertaken, a governors sub group has been
established and several student consultation workshops have already
taken place. These are planned to continue at monthly intervals. A
brochure and newsletter have been distributed to all parents. An
updated version of the newsletter is in development now. There are
more open evenings planned and staff have drop-in forums to discuss
queries and concerns.
31.What steps will be put in place to nurture parent partnership
within the Academy?
Like all schools, the Principal and the Governing body will see
parents as key partners in the education of all children and act
accordingly.
32.Will the Academy offer places for pupils with Special Educational
Needs and what support mechanisms will be put in place to support them?
The Academy will give priority to pupils with special educational
needs, which can best be met there and will be expected to take an
equitable share of such pupils. The Admissions Forum is expected to
monitor the operation of admission policies.
Any student with a statement of special educational needs which names
the Academy must be admitted.
33. Academy schools have the powers to select up to 10% of their
pupils. How will this be used?
All admission authorities have the opportunity, after consultation, to
give priority to up to 10% of pupils according to their aptitude in
one of a limited number of specialist subjects. These are limited to
sport and PE, performing or visual arts, modern foreign languages.
There are no proposals for this Academy to determine priority on the
basis of aptitude. The proposed admission criteria will be those
outlined above in question 6.
34. Will the Academy take its place on the Local Admission Forum?
The Academy will be part of the Local Admissions Forum.
35. A new building will mean less maintenance costs. What will happen
in 10 – 15 years when the building is not so new?
The Trust will need to ensure funds are set aside to meet the cost of
preventative maintenance and lifecycle replacement of the academy's
building elements.
36. What has happened to the capital monies received from the insurers
to cover the damage caused to the school by the fire on 17/11/2003?
The insurance income of £6.5 million is added to the Council's central
capital pot. Of this sum, the Council has spent around £3 million on
works and services incurred immediately after the fire, including
emergency and temporary works, relocations, hire costs, and
replacement furniture and equipment. The balance of £3.5million will
be used to support the Council's capital programme, including schools.
The Council is committed to providing new school facilities at the
Dartmouth site, preferably as an academy or through the Building
Schools for the Future programme. (Either way, the new facilities will
be provided to a standard fit for the 21st Century, and at a cost many
times greater than the balance of the insurance income).
Source Documents
Statutory guidance on the publishing of statutory notices
Report to the Cabinet Member for Schools and Lifelong Learning 10
April 2006
Objections Received
Contributions from Sponsor and DfES
1314
oeditor
Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 19:58:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <mbb386@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > It was meant to be tongue in cheek banter, MB.
>
> Good. :) Because I firmly think that if we could find a rich plumber
who'd
> be interested in underwriting a Science Academy we'd not turn down her
> Pounds or Dollars! :)
>
I wrote the original post to get in my jibe about setting on a
carpenter. But since you make the point, I'd be mighty suspicious if
the rich plumber demanded total control of a £20 million Science
Academy so that he could teach the phlogiston theory as being as valid
as the "theory" of oxygen, included astrology in physics classes and
told geology students that mountains were put there to stop the earth
shaking.
Brian
1315
Marc Draco
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 20:25:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
The point about Vardy (if I need to remind anyone else) is that he's an
ex car dealer.
I don't know about things in the US, but in the UK car dealers
(particularly USED car dealers - and Vardy has done his fair share of
that) are interminably dodgy buggers. No sooner as the ink is dry on
the contract forbidding him to sell cars for year, one of his sons sets
up selling cars in another part of Britain.
See? Dodgy. Not necessarily illegal, but you have to ask...
It's not that they put up all the money even - they don't.
They put up 10% and in return get 100% control and shitload of other
benefits. Vardy, for instance got a knighthood - for services to
education (read buying schools). You wonder why people make snipes
about him? Look no further.
If Vardy had written a cheque for 2M and given it to my town - no
strings attached - and done the same elsewhere. We'd carry him on our
shoulders; but he hasn't. Vardy's money comes with so many conditions
they had to cut down a major deciduous forest to make enough paper.
You might not recall Mike, but I live 5 minutes from one of these
places and it gets on my tits everyday that the people running it don't
know an idea from a scientific theory (and that's being generous); yet
my taxes are paying for it.
So far NOT ONE rich guy has put up the requisite 2M (which is BS
anyway) to make a science academy - because we don't need them. We
don't need them, because we already teach science in school. At least,
we used to until we started letting anyone with a wad of cash take over
a school and interpret the syllabus any way that suited them.
oeditor wrote:
->
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com,
"MB" <mbb386@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > It was meant to be tongue in cheek banter, MB.
>
> Good. :) Because I firmly think that if we could find a rich
plumber
who'd
> be interested in underwriting a Science Academy we'd not turn down
her
> Pounds or Dollars! :)
>
I wrote the original post to get in my jibe about setting on a
carpenter. But since you make the point, I'd be mighty suspicious if
the rich plumber demanded total control of a £20 million Science
Academy so that he could teach the phlogiston theory as being as valid
as the "theory" of oxygen, included astrology in physics classes and
told geology students that mountains were put there to stop the earth
shaking.
Brian
1316
Andrew
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 22:28:00
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Reg Vardy who made the money out of
being a used car dealer, and his two sons have inherited an already built-up
business? Of course we don't know how much they may have put into it since,
but happening to inherit something doesn't in itself require any expertise
at all.
1317
Marc Draco
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 22:49:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
Not quite. Peter (as in Sir) built up the business from Reg's rather
small (forecourt) business if you believe the official deal. I doubt
there's any way to find out without digging through ancient records.
Vardy made most of his money by opening a lot of franchises and selling
a sh*tload of credit; rather like Safestyle windows. There's money in
arranging loans. LOTS of money. People need cars and when people buy
cars they usually buy on finance. QED.
Andrew wrote:
->
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Reg Vardy who made the money out
of
being a used car dealer, and his two sons have inherited an already
built-up
business? Of course we don't know how much they may have put into it
since,
but happening to inherit something doesn't in itself require any
expertise
at all.
1319
John Germain
RE: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 23:36:00
Ok. This one might take you a little time to explain to me:
Leaving "On the Buses" aside..
Andrew:
Vardy Pere (Reginald Vardy) was succeded by some of his Family?
John Germain
Jersey
British Channel Islands
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 11:14 PM
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re: Dartmouth High School
Thanks. That surprises me a bit because I'd never heard of the Vardy sons
until the recent situation, but I do remember the Reg Vardy car sales
places. I wonder if they kept the father's name?
It looks like another of those situations that I tend to notice every time I
come across them - how someone can be massively successful financially in
our society and yet be personally undeveloped to a remarkable degree. I
usually come across it in psychological case studies, where patient A is a
succesful business person with a massive income and an equally massive
collection of borderline paranoid delusions and arrested childhood issues.
It explains a lot.
Yahoo! Groups Links
1321
Andrew
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
04/07/2006 23:49:00
I was under the impression there was a car sales company called Reg Vardy
that was now run by his sons Peter and (Eric?) Vardy?
1322
Ian Lowe
RE: Re: Dartmouth High School
05/07/2006 00:18:00
We are now a generation beyond that -
Reg Vardy's son Peter, now knighted "Sir" Peter Vardy sold the Reg Vardy
business, and his son, also called Peter, is starting afresh.
There's also a little doubt that Peter Junior has similar beliefs to his
father - I believe that he is not a born again believer like has father, and
much more moderate in his views.
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
From: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com [BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: 04 July 2006 23:50
To: BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BlackShadow] Re: Dartmouth High School
I was under the impression there was a car sales company called Reg Vardy
that was now run by his sons Peter and (Eric?) Vardy?
1323
oeditor
Re: Dartmouth 5
05/07/2006 00:45:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "ukantic" <ukantic@...> wrote:
>
> Agenda Item 4 Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council
>4 . Explain the Sponsors role and the involvement of the Saltmine
>Trust and their level of influence in the running of the school.
Now where did they spring from? One can only assume that the locals
know that the sponsor are in thrall to the organisation. Which
describes itself as being:
"at the forefront of Christian service, totally committed to evangelism"
>The sponsors provide a contribution to the capital funding of the
>Academy. Sponsor governors alongside staff, parent and local community
>governors, will oversee the general running of the Academy. The
>Saltmine Trust will have no influence in the running of the school.
It doesn't need to, directly, when those running the school are it
puppets.
http://www.saltmine.org/aboutus/index.htm
Which also says:
"Saltmine is committed to helping people develop their gifts to the
highest standard for the enlargement of God's Kingdom."
So no doubt any children attending the school who resist the
puppet-masters will get a very cool reception. Or should that be "hot"?
Brian
PS: if anyone thinks I'm being grizzly, see my next post.
1324
oeditor
To Nick: what about extinction, then?
05/07/2006 01:00:00
I've just watched a programme about the late Gerald Durrell. One of
the first champions of conservation. He was very concerned about the
effects of humans on endangered species of animans. I imagine, Nick,
that you will agree that modern species (non taxonomic generalisation)
are going extinct, just as the dinosaurs once did. What's your
theological take on this? "What goes around, comes around"? "Man, who
sinned, should go first"? "Animals are there for man's benefit, and if
he no longer needs them, so be it"?
I'm accustomed to various religious attitudes to animals, but I don't
think I've ever come across the YEC viewpoint. So, a serious request:
enlighten me. I haven't the faintest idea what your response will be.
Brian
1325
oeditor
Re: Dartmouth High School
05/07/2006 01:20:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Marc Draco <midnight.diamond@...>
wrote:
> Vardy made most of his money by opening a lot of franchises and >
>selling > a sh*tload of credit;
Funny thing that, for a christian. "Buy now, pay later" - I thought
the theist idea was "pay now, receive later." That is, if you've
wagered your money on the correct one of the 2580 gods (or whatever
the number's got up to.)
But then, what's wiping an old car with an oily rag, compared with
redeeming souls? (answer: the former, despite their both being
profitable frauds, is at least based on physics (chemistry even, at a
molecular level.)
Brian
PS: What sort of chemist do you consider yourself, Nick? I've gone
pretty much the whole gamut: originally most interested in inorgamic
and radiochemistry, employed as a biochemist and my main interest is
bioinorganic. I suppose there's a bit of consistency there, if I
forget my time in fuel technology :-)
1326
MB
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
05/07/2006 03:51:00
> --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <mbb386@...> wrote:
>
> I wrote the original post to get in my jibe about setting on a
> carpenter. But since you make the point, I'd be mighty suspicious if
> the rich plumber demanded total control of a £20 million Science
> Academy so that he could teach the phlogiston theory as being as valid
> as the "theory" of oxygen, included astrology in physics classes and
> told geology students that mountains were put there to stop the earth
> shaking.
>
So would I. But if a rich bartender came along who wanted to help
underwrite a school, I'd not refuse out of hand. Of course if he wanted to
dictate what is taught, that's not the same as underwriting.
My comment was about slamming the underwriters' businesses.
Over here many universities have rich alumni who will underwrite the
physical construction of various buildings or underwrite student
scholarships in various subjects or a professorship. Perhaps there are
questions about where they got their money, but I'm not familiar with that
end of things. Instead I see great gratitude that somebody wants to
support a school or students or professors.
Really, I do see where you're coming from. I probably shouldn't have said
anything. But the snide remarks about used-car-salesmen and electricians
were beginning to annoy me and I thought I'd bring it up. If it annoys me,
it may well annoy others.
Regards,
MB
1327
MB
Re: Re: Dartmouth High School
05/07/2006 04:04:00
> They put up 10% and in return get 100% control and shitload of other
> benefits. Vardy, for instance got a knighthood - for services to
> education (read buying schools). You wonder why people make snipes about
> him? Look no further.
That is just crazy, I agree.
>
> If Vardy had written a cheque for 2M and given it to my town - no
> strings attached - and done the same elsewhere. We'd carry him on our
> shoulders; but he hasn't. Vardy's money comes with so many conditions
> they had to cut down a major deciduous forest to make enough paper.
And IMHO that is the problem, it's wrong.
Not that he was a used-car-salesman. Although they do have a poor
reputation in the USA also. :)
Now, my question really is, how come it works like that? How come giving
some money to a school gives such control? I mean, if he wanted to *start*
a school of his own, that would be one thing, but taking away the local
school is mind boggling.
The concept of "buying" the local school, what we'd call a public school
in the US, is very foreign to me. I'm continually surprised that such a
thing is possible.
Regards,
MB
1328
Roger Stanyard
Re: Dartmouth High School
05/07/2006 08:05:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <taoist.hermit1@...> wrote:
>
>
> I was under the impression there was a car sales company called Reg
Vardy
> that was now run by his sons Peter and (Eric?) Vardy?
>
IIRC there were three sons that ran the business. One of them is called
David and last time I checked he was involved in the EST.
I happen to think MB has a point. The brothers did build a very
successful business which is more tham most of us have evey done. I
also happen to respect Peter Vardy's philanthropy which has also
extended (heavily) to Sunderland University.
However, Peter Vardy has a very limited education, despite going to a
good school. One wonders had he obtained a decent education whether he
would believe in all this fundie crapola.
The EST schools are overwhelmingly financed and run with public money
not EST money. Not surpringly are people peed off with him.
Moreover, Vardy is not alone in the EST; the Christian Institute which
represents rgar gard line evangelical fundamentalist wing of the CoE
has had a definitive role in the Vardy schools.
I seriously question whether the two fundie businessmen looking
establishing academies in the Midlands are quite as independentlu
minded as the proess seems to suggest. Quite who else is involved with
them is not clear at all.
What seriously worries me is that a group of not very well educated
businessmen are, largely at public expense, buying their way into
education at the beck and call of fundamentalist organisations working
behind the scenes.
They are going to get a hellofa beating from the public as a
consequence. It isn't smart.
It also isn't clever for the government to be buying people with the
honours system although I do not for one moment suggest that Vardy was
bought. There is a wiff of corruption about the honours system these
days.
The whole problem about the academy system is that it is not about
bringing extra money into public education. It doesn't. It's about the
way schools are run and the fundies are exploiting it according at our
expense (financial or otherwise).
I happen to respect Vardy as a businessman but that respect is largely
negated by the EST. Respect is something that is earned, not demanded
as of right because of his business expertise and track-record. He has
undone that respect.
There is an old saw that it takes years to be up one's reputation but
it can be vert easily undone.
Roger Stanyard
1329
Roger Stanyard
Re: Dartmouth High School
05/07/2006 08:29:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <mbb386@...> wrote:
>
>
>> The concept of "buying" the local school, what we'd call a public
school
> in the US, is very foreign to me. I'm continually surprised that such
a
> thing is possible.
>
So are we!
Roger
>
1330
Roger Stanyard
Re: Dartmouth High School
05/07/2006 08:27:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <mbb386@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "MB" <mbb386@> wrote:
> >
> Over here many universities have rich alumni who will underwrite the
> physical construction of various buildings or underwrite student
> scholarships in various subjects or a professorship. Perhaps there
are
> questions about where they got their money, but I'm not familiar
with that
> end of things. Instead I see great gratitude that somebody wants to
> support a school or students or professors.
>
The same system works over here, MB. But the academy system isn't the
same. It's not about money, it's about the way failing schools are
managed and run.
Let me put it another way. No doubt many a philanthropist has offred
money to colleges and schools conditional on someone matching the
funding in some way. But in the case of the Vardy schools, the
matching is £1 of philanthropic money for £10 of public money. As a
result is allows the fundies to buy control of public schools at
taxpayers expense.
I haven't seen that happen with American universities. Imagine a
philanthropist (misanthropist) such as Howie Ahmanson taking control
of a public university in this way. Does that really happen in the
USA?
He puts up, say, US$250m and the state then provides US$2.5b and he
then controls large parts of its teaching and converts it into
another BJU.
I suspect that most Americans would be hopping mad if that were the
case.
The philanthropy in the academy system in the UK is a fig leaf.
Randall Hardy is a right and proper target for us. He isn't a
philanthropist and his involvement in public education is a serious
matter. Yes, I seriously question his background as an electrician as
a basis for public education policies.
Hardy's boss, John Mackay, was thrown out of Millfield school because
he was an extremist. Yet the Christian Institute, which is a powerful
public lobbying organisation, is describing him as the Rev Professor
Mackay. That is the same Mackay that has got himself into Bluecoast
school.
I haven't researched (yet) the backgrounds of the two Midlands
fundamentalist businessmen aiming at setting up academies but it
would not surprise me at all if I find the same network of
fundamentalists involved that I find everywhere else. See my bog at
http://360.yahoo.com/stanyardroger
I am in the process of undertaking two pieces of research which show
just how the fundamentalists are organised in the UK. The first two
tables whould be ready fairly shortly (within a week). It's
frightening how they kept it from the public (much of the qualitative
background is on my blog).
Roger Stanyard
1331
Marc Draco
More dirt on the academies
05/07/2006 10:25:00
http://tinyurl.com/create.php
1332
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 10:50:00
So in your view it is not unprofessional to teach creationist
pseudocrap to children... You do realise you are one of the best
advertisements on the web against creationism?
1333
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 10:52:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...> wrote:
> What happens to Christians who lie under oath, Nick?
He is such a good advertisement against creationism that I encourage
him to keep posting. It builds up a nice archive...
Come on Nick, please keep shooting your side in the foot, mouth, head;
pretty please...
1334
Marc Draco
Time to write to MPs (again)
05/07/2006 10:40:00
bgcolor="#ffffff"
For those of you who haven't joined Peter Hearty's new site
notoacadamies.org.uk (and why not) I've been working on some damning
exposes of Vardy schools (and I'm not finished yet).
However, time is of the essence and we need to raise awareness that
Vardy's people are a completely unsuitable choice to run schools based
on their own words. Here is the offending article appearing on their
site.
Take a deep breath: this is going to hurt.
cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="90%" align="center"
In
her various recent pieces on the Creationism debate, the Daily Mail's
Education Correspondent, Laura Clark, perpetuates rather than clears up
the falsehoods which remain about Emmanuel College and the other
schools run by the Emmanuel Schools Foundation.
Some key facts may help her towards the truth.
In her piece on 11th April 2006, Miss Clark suggests that our
schools' presentation of creation results from us being “ allowed to
stray from the National Curriculum under Labour's controversial scheme
to give schools more autonomy if they win private backing.
"If,
however, she would care to read the National Curriculum for Science at
Key Stage Four, she would be enlightened to learn that it states that
all children in maintained schools must be taught the controversial
issues within Science which come from different interpretations of the
same data. What will further enlighten her is the fact that the sole
example given of such controversy is Darwin's theory (note ‘theory') of
Evolution!
http://www.emmanuel-schools.org.uk/mailApr11.htm
http://tinyurl.com/z8oj4
See, told you that would be painful. Conclusive proof of what the ESF
is about and a bloody good reason to expose the lying SOBs for what
they really are. Don't worry about them taking it down, plenty of folk
in the press are already well aware of this statement.
The actual statement they allude to says this:
"how scientific controversies can arise from different ways of
interpreting empirical evidence [for example, Darwin's theory of
evolution]"
OK, the example the DfES author chose is crap, but that doesn't stop
the ESF from interpreting it completely OUT of context.
I propose that a letter is compiled immediately to all our MPs to
demand that the ESF are sacked immediately as they are clearly in
breach of education law and their contract to teach the National
Curriculum. This letter should be open and published on the
NoToAcadamies website and sent to all our MPs.
Marc
1335
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 10:48:00
I am back myself, fresh from an African archaeology conference where
we discussed icky horrible material remains. Guess what, no Flood
level, remains pre-dating 6000 bp. Funny that, eh.
> Evilution is not falsifiable,
*yawn* Yeah repeat it to yourself again and again. Doesn't make it
true though *shrugs*
> ....which brings me back to your last attempts to gag me.
Loose the matrydom complex. It's so bloody boring and utterly pathetic.
1336
Marc Draco
Re: [secular_newsline] More dirt on the academies
05/07/2006 10:47:00
Wake up Draco!
http://tinyurl.com/gh72v
(sorry, that should work)
Marc Draco wrote:
>http://tinyurl.com/create.php
>
>
>
>
1337
MB
Re: More dirt on the academies
05/07/2006 11:11:00
> http://tinyurl.com/create.php
>
>
>
Marc, that URL doesn't go where you want. It only goes to the Create a
Tiny URL page.
Regards,
MB
1338
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 11:18:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "m_cowan32" <m_cowan32@...> wrote:
> > (1) How do you know that to be so?
>
> I don't KNOW it - I wasn't there.
So you act on the written word in a book. In other words, you worship
a BOOK.
> I would suggest that during the 40 days of rain from above
> (balanced out thermodynamically by the water from below, so there's
> no energy/temperature problem as has been naively suggested) the
> more intelligent humans moved to higher ground and mostly drowned:
> the dinosaurs were mostly buried. It's plausible, although I'm not
> claiming any palaeontological expertise here.
In other words you are claiming that your proposal can be tested and
found wanting. So much for geology and evolutionary biology being
pseudosciences then...
Oh by the way, your "suggestion" was tested over a hundred years ago
and found wanting...
Maybe someday you will realise just how utterly stupid and uneducated
this post of yours sounds. Then again, maybe not.
1339
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 11:25:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Nick & Moira Cowan <m_cowan32@...>
wrote:
> You don't need to - the Bible affirms that the earth
> is a sphere - Hebrew (phoenetic): chug - often
> mistranslated as "circle" (Isaiah 40v22).
All those flat-earth creationists are merely heretics then, eh?
> Pretty good science for 8th century B.C. don't you
> think?
Nothing outstanding about it *shrugs* The Bible was composed over many
centuries, btw.
1340
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 11:27:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Nick & Moira Cowan <m_cowan32@...>
wrote:
> I repeat my long-standing invitation for you or anyone
> else to come and debate me in such a public forum.
I repeat the long-standing invitation for people to come and see you
in action here. Debate is about public oratory, not facts. I also
prefer to answer you in my own time as you are extremely low on my
list of priorities and I have more productive things to do with my
time, such as wasting my time on archaeology.
1341
Mikey Brass
Fwd: [DebunkCreation] Re: i dont get it
05/07/2006 11:28:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Nick & Moira Cowan <m_cowan32@...>
wrote:
> Now stop hassling me to "show your science". There
> isn't any true science on either side of this
> controversy - and neither can there be, as is clearly
> demonstrated.
Demonstrated by WHAT? What is this magic thing that can be demonstrated?
1342
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 11:22:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Nick & Moira Cowan <m_cowan32@...>
wrote:
> I make mistakes regularly, as you've already realised!
> But the human authors of the Bible didn't, because
> they were speaking under the inspiration of the
> omniscient God.
You really need to brush up on theological and archaeological studies
of the Biblical *scripts*.
Oh by the far, which version of Genesis do you accept?
1343
Mikey Brass
Re: Nick Cowan: Science Preacher - how did Noah do it?
05/07/2006 11:30:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Nick & Moira Cowan <m_cowan32@...>
wrote:
> I don't mind answering proper SCIENCE (eg Chemistry)
> questions if I'm able, but I'm being repeatedly asked
> (yawn) about pseudo-science like historical (origins)
> Geology and evolutionary Biology.
The biology teacher at your school must absolutely love you.
Funny though how creationists feel able to pronounce on disciplines
they have no training in...
1344
Mikey Brass
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 11:33:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, Nick & Moira Cowan <m_cowan32@...>
wrote:
> Er - in 700BC? Greek culture wasn't too advanced at
> that point. Eratosthenes was born around 276BC. Still,
> what's a few hundred years out compared to over 14
> billion? (shrug).
(a) you would need to prove there has been a mistranslation
(b) that the passage in question was not written in another time
period (the Bible was composed over centuries)
(c) that anyone earlier than Eratosphenes was incapable of determining
the earth was a sphere
(d) disprove prior suggestions put forward that the Egyptians in later
periods held that the earth was a sphere
etc etc etc etc
I would advise you *not* to degenerate the abilities of our ancestors
simply because you have personal doubts. Personal incredubility means
jack shit.
1345
Marc Draco
Academy legal position challenged by London parent
05/07/2006 16:29:00
This guy needs our support: all of it.
http://tinyurl.com/f5sg9
This goes to the heart of Bliar's education reforms and is borne out by
the way that many academies get foisted on local communties.
Marc
1346
Robert K
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 17:25:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Mikey Brass" <michael.brass@...>
> He is such a good advertisement against creationism that I encourage
> him to keep posting. It builds up a nice archive...
>
> Come on Nick, please keep shooting your side in the foot, mouth, head;
> pretty please...
>
------------------------------------
Mikey, Shush! Spiders don't tipoff the fly.....!
If he hasn't yet spotted the trail of destruction that he leaves in
his wake by trying this here then maybe there is hope for his
students' future careers in science...
He still has not offered an explanation as to why it is acceptable to
mis-inform his students about the nature of the scientific enterprise
as it is ACTUALLY undertaken - now - not some imaginary and wished-for
parallel universe of internal dissent and 'controversy'....
Robert K
1347
Robert K
Re: Boooo!!
05/07/2006 17:38:00
--- In BlackShadow@yahoogroups.com, "Mikey Brass" <michael.brass@...>
wrote:
>
> I am back myself, fresh from an African archaeology conference where
> we discussed icky horrible material remains. Guess what, no Flood
> level, remains pre-dating 6000 bp. Funny that, eh.
>
> > Evilution is not falsifiable,
>
> *yawn* Yeah repeat it to yourself again and again. Doesn't make it
> true though *shrugs*
>
> > ....which brings me back to your last attempts to gag me.
>
> Loose the matrydom complex. It's so bloody boring and utterly pathetic.
>
==================================
:o
Mikey, are you absolutely sure there is no flood evidence, because Mr
Cowan said it actually happened, so it must be there. Right? Also, if
it is true then it must be true for everyone, including those who
don't believe it and are therefore wrong.
He has not given any evidence of any process which would completely
eliminate all the flood evidence, so, the flood evidence must still be
there.
Unless, it is another of the great Archeologist conspiracies for which
there is no evidence, which is itself of course, evidence of a
conspiracy. Being an Archeologist you must find you have to lie a lot
when Mr Cowan makes you sweat.....
</irony>
;)
RbtK
1348
Mikey Brass
Academy plan under legal pressure
05/07/2006 18:38:00
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5148188.stm
1349
Roger Stanyard
Creationist Academics in the UK
05/07/2006 19:24:00
Well the fundamentalists keep shouting their mouths off about the
growing number of scientists who accept their mumbo jumbo. Well, I've
just done an analysis of known creationist academics in UK
universities and guess what I found?????
They are lying - surprise, surprise.
I've got a full report on my blog at
http://360.yahoo.com/stanyardroger which shows that there is a core
of about six or seven activist fundies in British academia and only
one has a background touching on biology. Just one! Most of the rest
have nothing to do with science at all; they are engineers and
dentists.
Basically the fundies have made no inroads whatsoever into academia
and, indeed, look to be in retreat as they retire or get pensioned
off.
Does that surprise anyone?
Roger Stanyard
1350
Mikey Brass
Re: Re: Boooo!!
06/07/2006 10:27:00
> Mikey, Shush! Spiders don't tipoff the fly.....!
When will that stop his ego trip of lying for God?
